Two of the prisoner-taking cards specify additional body checks that prisoners must make: Flies and Spiders, and Spells of the Barrow-Wights. Say an Orc/Troll is taken prisoner. It seems that the "Discard on a body check result of X (or Y)" actually helps them escape from prison (and thus help their player escape the negative marshalling point penalty)?
Is there no errata on this? How does this match "This effect represents the target running or slinking away from the attack" when there is no attack??
Statistically this would mean that characters discarded on a 7 or 8 are more likely to self-escape Spells of the Barrow-Wights before death / game end (11 to 10 ratio) than even those discarded on a 10 (which isn't even possible, as near as I can figure) (3 to 3 ratio)! What?? (Not to mention that non-Orcs/Trolls/Ringwraiths can NEVER self-escape from Spells of the Barrow-Wights...)
Ringwraiths returning to hand I could see as being more reasonable, since they are wraiths... tasty orcs not so much.
Weak-willed Orcs are the best escape artists?
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I could also see, a world where the forces of darkness, aka minions, can't be taken prisoner. I mean the only fringe would be "Shelob's Spawn" ...
So to me, I wouldn't really worry too much, and be thankful, if that was my goal, for "minions" to take "minions" prisoner...
It's kind of a wash, the way I see things...
So to me, I wouldn't really worry too much, and be thankful, if that was my goal, for "minions" to take "minions" prisoner...
It's kind of a wash, the way I see things...
As of 4/3/21 4:03:21
my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
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If you have other collected rulings that are not
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my current rulings foundation is based on:
All of the rules and rulings found in these PDFs at:
https://cardnum.net/rules
If you have other collected rulings that are not
listed please feel free to email them or PM me...
- Bandobras Took
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It fits with the intended mechanic, which is that you are punished more for getting a strong character imprisoned than a weak one. As for not making thematic sense, I don't think any of us would be here at this point if we felt the rules had to make thematic sense.
The game is flawed, but this does not mean it cannot be loved.
I found this:
I haven't been able to find any follow up. We can speculate as to whether this means ICE didn't see the need for a change, or whether Ichabod never asked.ICE NetRep 1997/6/27 (Ichabod) wrote:>One of us was playing an Undead hazard strategy and he noticed that 'Spells of the Barrow-Wights' specifies that the attack mearly be sucessful. So, he targetted a Ringwraith with a detainment undead attack which succeeded and took the RW prisoner.
>
>Now, the second time the RW made a body roll, he rolled a 7 (maybe it was an eight). Anyway, according to the rules on a 7 or 8 the RW mount is destroyed and the RW is returned to your hand. Alright, if you *can* take a RW prisoner, does having him returned to your hand in this manner make any kind of sense?
Well, its the correct rules. I don't think it makes sense either. I'll ask ICE if they want to make a clarification about this. This isn't the only weird case either: does it make sense for an Orc to run away scared from jail?
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I realized that Orcs and Trolls cannot be escape artists.
Ringwraiths still seem to be escape artists. Maybe that's reasonable as wraiths.
Any cards includes themselves. Orc and Troll characters are not cards that specifically affect characters taken prisoner. Their discard mechanic should be ignored.MEDM wrote:When taken prisoner, a character cannot take any actions (including healing or untapping) and cannot be affected by any cards except for those that specifically affect characters taken prisoner.
Ringwraiths still seem to be escape artists. Maybe that's reasonable as wraiths.
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- Konrad Klar
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Good catch!
I always read "Discard on a body check result of..." as how to interpret some result of body check, but if this is an action caused by passive condition, you are right.
I always read "Discard on a body check result of..." as how to interpret some result of body check, but if this is an action caused by passive condition, you are right.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
- Konrad Klar
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Wait.
What if Muzgash has body lowered by 1 and result of bc is 8?
If "Discard on a body check result of 8" is an action caused by passive condition, the action will not happen.
bc has been performed (its result is not altered), then when it comes to execution of "Discard on a body check result of 8" Muzgash is not in play.
What if Muzgash has body lowered by 1 and result of bc is 8?
If "Discard on a body check result of 8" is an action caused by passive condition, the action will not happen.
bc has been performed (its result is not altered), then when it comes to execution of "Discard on a body check result of 8" Muzgash is not in play.
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- Konrad Klar
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"Effect" (discarding of Orc/Troll character) is (or is not) result of passive condition, not passive condition itself.
If some passive condition, or other effect in play, would cause cc for all characters then characters off to the side would not be affected. They will not be affected at Council too.
EDIT: "of to the side" -> "off to the side"
If some passive condition, or other effect in play, would cause cc for all characters then characters off to the side would not be affected. They will not be affected at Council too.
EDIT: "of to the side" -> "off to the side"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
I agree, the passive condition is the action occurring in the game that triggers some effect to occur.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:37 pm "Effect" (discarding of Orc/Troll character) is (or is not) result of passive condition, not passive condition itself.
I don't see how you can make the first statement and then go on to say "passive condition, or other effect" since a passive condition is not an effect itself -- it's a condition for triggering effects. Saying "passive condition or other effect" suggests that a "passive condition" is an effect.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:37 pm If some passive condition, or other effect in play, ...
My previous statement was "Whether the effect [[uses]] a passive condition or not has no bearing on this discussion about orc prisoners." Specifically, whether the Orc's card text effect uses a passive condition or not has no bearing on the MEDM prisoner rules. I mention this because other some of the recent posts suggested that use passive conditions somehow mattered.Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:37 pm If some ... effect in play, would cause cc for all characters then characters off to the side would not be affected. They will not be affected at Council too.
- Konrad Klar
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I would say the passive condition is the effect occurring in the game that triggers some action to occur (as stated in text of card in play).
.
Yes. Exhausting a play deck, a company moving through certain region, result of some check, end of some phase are effects.
Not necessarily "results".
Lest's talk about problem, not about its cause.CDavis7M wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:39 pm My previous statement was "Whether the effect [[uses]] a passive condition or not has no bearing on this discussion about orc prisoners." Specifically, whether the Orc's card text effect uses a passive condition or not has no bearing on the MEDM prisoner rules. I mention this because other some of the recent posts suggested that use passive conditions somehow mattered.
If there is something other than effect that specifically refers to a card off to the side (whole class, or particular card) it does not affect the card off to the side.
Text of Spells of the Barrow-Wights specifically refers to particular character hosted by the card. It forces the character to make bc.
Now. If some result of the bc indicates that the character is discarded/returned to hand, then he is discarded/returned to hand.
However if result of bc itself does not indicate so, but some other effect (written on card in play, or otherwise existing in play) says that if result of bc was such or such, then character is discarded, returned to hand, something else, then it has no effect on the character off to the side.
In the second case the effect happens after bc has been performed and its result implemented.
Either "Discard on a body check result of..." is integral part of bc of some characters, or bc and "Discard on a body check result of..." are decoupled.
EDIT: "If something" -> "If there is something"
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- Konrad Klar
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Of course MEDM prisoner rules do not mention passive condition, body check and other general topics.
Nonetheless some imprisoning cards may cause bc. And certain result of bc may be passive condition of other action.
Nonetheless some imprisoning cards may cause bc. And certain result of bc may be passive condition of other action.
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I think I see what you're wondering, Konrad. There could be a difference between these two hierarchies of affecting:
I would still argue that it [would otherwise] affect the prisoner because the rule modification is scoped only for the prisoner's body checks; i.e., it would be a modification of the body check rules for that character.
- [character ability] changes [body check rules] changes [body check effect]
- [character ability] changes [body check effect] (via passive condition)
I would still argue that it [would otherwise] affect the prisoner because the rule modification is scoped only for the prisoner's body checks; i.e., it would be a modification of the body check rules for that character.
Last edited by Theo on Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Konrad Klar
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So you have changed your opinion?
Why just not to say:
"Discard on a body check result of..." is not action caused by passive condition as it may appear for some player(s), but alternation of result of body check.
?
seems supporting that.CRF, Rulings by Term, Body Check wrote:Effects that modify a character's body also modify the number an Orc or Troll would
be discarded on. A maximum to body applies equally to the discard number.
If an Orc or Troll could be discarded and eliminated by a result, discard them instead
of eliminating them.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Everything (mechanics, timing, interactions with other cards or effects) works exactly the same whether the Orc's discard-on-body-check effect uses passive conditions or whether it is an effect that modifies the result of the body check.