Faction Playability And Play

[Bandobras Took]

To play a faction, tap one character in the company to make an influence attempt. Roll the dice, add the character's unused direct influence, any standard modifications for the character's race (heroes) or other factions in play (minions), and any other modifications from other cards. If the result is higher than the number listed on the faction, put the faction in your MP pile, and tap the site. The site does not tap otherwise.

BRINGING A FACTION INTO PLAY
In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card. Then you must make an influence check. Make a roll (2D6), add your character's unused direct influence, and add any appropriate modifications (any applicable standard modifications from the faction card and from any other cards played). All influence check modifier cards must be played before making the roll (2D6).
If the modified result is greater than the value required on the faction card, you place the faction in your marshalling point pile (it now counts towards your marshalling point total). Otherwise, you discard the faction card. Once a faction is brought into play, it is not controlled by any specific character and it does not count against general or direct influence.

During your site phase, one and only one of your characters may tap to attempt to influence away one of your opponent's characters, followers, allies, factions, or items. This may only take place if the influencing character and the target of the influence are at the same site.

To influence a faction, you must be at the site where the faction is playable.

To influence a faction, the agent must be at the site at which the faction is playable.

So, lots of mess here. Most, if not all, factions are listed as playable only if there is a successful influence check. This presents no particular difficulty with playing a faction from the hand, as neither the Balrog Summary nor the MELE rules state that you have to be at the site where the faction is playable. The Balrog Summary doesn't mention the correct site at all, while the MELE Rules merely state you need to be at the site "indicated" on the faction's card.

However, when influencing a faction already in play, you either have to follow the MELE Rules, which means that factions are actually at sites in this game, or you have to go with the Balrog Rules Summary, which squares with MEDM. In this case, the question is: was the influence check that was used to bring the faction into play in the first place sufficient to establish its playability as long as the faction remains in play?

(Yes, this is a train wreck, but there's at least a path through the rules to what is presumably the intended functionality.)

[Konrad Klar]

So, lots of mess here. Most, if not all, factions are listed as playable only if there is a successful influence check. This presents no particular difficulty with playing a faction from the hand, as neither the Balrog Summary nor the MELE rules state that you have to be at the site where the faction is playable.

But you like to be strict AFIK.

Beside site a faction card may list other conditions. Greater Half-orcs is playable at your protected Wizardhaven, but only if you have A Strident Spawn and Half-orcs (and if influence check is greater than 11).

If only site must be taken into account when a faction has to be played, then why not ignore the requirements a having of A Strident Spawn and Half-orcs (along with result of influence check)?

P.S. And think about "(if tapped or untapped)". Does it make a much of sense if interpret it literally?

EDIT: Hal-orcs -> Half-orcs

[Theo]

Also:

When a Agent wishes to influence a faction it must be at the site the faction if playable. What about non-unique factions playable at multiple sites (i.e. Panalopy of Wings)? Does the agent need to be at any of the sites that the faction could have been played at, or at the specific site that faction was played at?

*** Any site where the faction could have been played.

This simply reinforces MEDM though.

And:

You may only influence an opponent’s factions if the influencing character is at the site where the faction was played.

I see this as a faction-specific replacement for the more general MELE rule above about influencing away opponent's characters and resources in general.

[Theo]

The faction playability conditionality perhaps mimics the similar discussion about creature playability for the ARV. Creatures played as an automatic-attack (playabilty conditions)

The fact that half-orc factions have italicized their first conditionals and not their second is, I believe, a good indication that the two are meant to be treated differently. The italicized conditionals is then directly modifying whether the preceding site is to be considered a ""site" indicated on the faction's card" (similar to how italics are used on other cards); without satisfying the italicized conditionals, then we are to consider that there is NO site indicated on the faction's card. The influence conditionals remains, as always, independent from "the "site" indicated on the faction's card" and is just "the value required on the faction card". The italicized conditionals are certainly not part of "the value required on the faction card"!

[Konrad Klar]

And:

MELE wrote:
You may only influence an opponent’s factions if the influencing character is at the site where the faction was played.

I see this as a faction-specific replacement for the more general MELE rule above about influencing away opponent's characters and resources in general.

My source says:

You may only influence an opponent's faction if the influencing character is at one of the sites where the faction is playable.

There was edited version of MELE manual available at the net (https://councilofelrond.org/files/MELE.pdf) that was marked as:
"This edition edited and silently corrected for typos and use-mention errors"

[Konrad Klar]

The fact that half-orc factions have italicized their first conditionals and not their second is, I believe, a good indication that the two are meant to be treated differently.

Good point.

And it does not change my opinion that "if influence check is greater than X" cannot be applied literally.
A faction is/is not considered playable at given site also outside moment of performing the influence attempt against it, and regardless of result of the attempt (if there was such attempt).

[Bandobras Took]

If only site must be taken into account when a faction has to be played, then why not ignore the requirements a having of A Strident Spawn and Half-orcs (along with result of influence check)?

I didn't say that. I said, according to the rules, you don't need to be at a site where the faction is *playable.* In the case of the Balrog Summary, no mention is made at all. In the case of MELE, you simply have to be at the site indicated on the card. The site indicated on the card does not change whether the faction is currently playable or not.

The current indication is that once an influence check is made, the card remembers that it was made as long as it is in play. Therefore, once a faction is in play, it has become playable at the sites indicated for the purposes of influencing a faction already in play from MEDM and the Balrog Rules Summary.

As I said, it's a mess.

[Konrad Klar]

I didn't say that. I said, according to the rules, you don't need to be at a site where the faction is *playable.*

I cannot be at a site where the faction is *playable.* My company can.
If in some phrase "you" and "your company" is used interchangeably, precision of the phrase is questionable.

As I said, it's a mess.

(Yes, this is a train wreck, but there's at least a path through the rules to what is presumably the intended functionality.)

So I'm trying to make an reconstruction.

[Theo]

My source says:

You may only influence an opponent's faction if the influencing character is at one of the sites where the faction is playable.

There was edited version of MELE manual available at the net (https://councilofelrond.org/files/MELE.pdf) that was marked as:
"This edition edited and silently corrected for typos and use-mention errors"

Erg, yes. The marking really should be "This edition corrupted for unknown reasons such that it isn't reliable."

[Bandobras Took]

Back to the original point . . .

A faction currently isn't considered playable at a site without a successful influence check.

However, that doesn't matter for bringing a faction into play because the rules don't specify that the faction needs to be played at a site where it is playable. It merely needs to be at the site indicated on the faction card.

I'm not sure what you're arguing, Konrad, but it doesn't seem to have any bearing on these two points.

The only question here is whether one influence check is sufficient to establish the site where the faction is playable once it's in play.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm not sure what you're arguing, Konrad, but it doesn't seem to have any bearing on these two points.

Faction may be playable at site conditionally.
If
"In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card. Then you must make an influence check"
its all you need, then do not care about A Strident Spawn and Half-orcs.

[Bandobras Took]

It's not all you need, but it cannot be done without it. There is a difference between saying something is necessary and something is the only thing necessary. Whether a faction is playable does not have bearing on bringing a faction into play, only on influencing a faction already in play, while being at the indicated site is necessary to bring a faction into play.

[Konrad Klar]

Faction may be playable at site conditionally.
If
"In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card. Then you must make an influence check"
its all you need to bring Greater Half-orcs into play, then do not care about A Strident Spawn and Half-orcs.

[Bandobras Took]

Okay, I see where the confusion is.

The faction doesn't need to be playable *to make the influence check* to bring the faction into play. Once the influence check is made, the faction is playable when the other conditions are fulfilled, because the influence check has succeeded at that point. But if any of the conditions are not fulfilled, then the faction can't be played.

Apologies for being unclear. I'm not as cogent as I used to be.

Thus the question: once the influence check has succeeded and the faction has been played, has its playability been set for as long as it remains in play? Or how long does the successful influence check last as regards playability? It's important, because influencing a faction in play does rely on the site where it is playable.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm for taking rules texts literally.
If this sometimes leads to apparently nonsensical results, this is a sign that some text requires an errata.

In order to play a faction card, you must tap one of your characters that is at the "site" indicated on the faction's card.

I can take it literally without problems.
The site may be indicated not only by specifying its name, but also by specifying additional conditions, that must be met.
Per analogy to creatures that are playable at some sites, in some regions if e.g. Doors of Night is in play.

During your site phase, one and only one of your characters may tap to attempt to influence away one of your opponent's characters, followers, allies, factions, or items. This may only take place if the influencing character and the target of the influence are at the same site.

I cannot take it literally without problems.
Factions are not at site.

To influence a faction, you must be at the site where the faction is playable.

I cannot take it literally without problems.
You are not at site.