Mind alteration during the character draft

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CDavis7M
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Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by CDavis7M »

I had believed that no mind-adjustments take place during the draft. But in Digest 35 Ichabod states that you will have 15 mind left in the draft after playing a 6 mind character with Thrall. However, the same is not true for mind-altering rings in Digest 47, these don't apply during the draft because the minor items are played (at step 4) after the draft (step 3) (Digest 47).

There is also Digest 52 which says Thrall/Summons does not change the mind in the draft. And then Digest 85 says that you can actually bring in a 7 mind agent if you play Thrall and Open to the Summons.

It seems like 52 overrules 35. I haven't seen any further updates to this. As far as I know, people play the draft such that the total can never be above 20 mind played in a starting company.
Ichabod Rules Digest 35 wrote:> 5) I play 6 mind character with Thrall of The Voice. How
> many points do i have left in character draft? 14 or 15?
15.
Ichabod - Rules Digest 47 wrote:>2: Can you start a Character with Thrall of his Voice and a mind ring or
two to start a character of 7 or 8 mind?
No. Minor items come into play after you reveal the character, so they
can't affect his mind for purposes of playing him.

...

>2: Can you start a Character with Thrall of his Voice and a mind ring or
two to start a character of 7 or 8 mind?
No. Minor items come into play after you reveal the
Ichabod Digest 52 wrote:>2) I thought I saw some mention of this recently, but I couldn't find it
>when I looked back. Does *Thrall of the Voice* and/or *Opens to Summons*
>reduce the target character's mind by one for purposes of the 20 mind AT
>START maximum? I know that the mind rings DO NOT do this.
No. Your starting company can only have 20 points of unmodified mind.
Ichabod Digest 85 wrote:From: "Michael Kaszubski" <mik...@konto.infocentrum.com>
>Does it mean you can play both Open to the Summons and Thrall of the Voice
>to put a 7-mind character (like Anarin) into play?
It means you can put a 7 mind *agent* into play.

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Mordakai
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by Mordakai »

I think #52 and #85 do not collide. A 7 mind agent can be played, but it does not mean that his mind is 5 for mind counting during the draft, it only says you can play it (bypassing the regular 5-minder limit of FW, I suppose is the background issue of digest #85)
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Bandobras Took
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by Bandobras Took »

Offhand, 85 is probably wrong. Thrall only allows a mind of up to 6, and Open to the Summons doesn't override the FW mind limit either way.

Unless he's suggesting that Open to the Summons is an alternate mechanism for character play entirely, and that a FW player need follow none of the normal FW rules for character play/draft.

Then you can place Thrall with a 7-mind agent who's been summoned, because Thrall can't be placed on a character with greater than 6 mind. Even then, the wording on Thrall may mean that it can't be placed on a character brought into play through a means other than Thrall.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards correctly. This prompted the backlash erratum that I will link to as soon as I notice it is officially posted. :)

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Theo
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by Theo »

CRF wrote:Your starting company can only contain 20 points of unmodified mind.
--

I'll have more to say about ICE Rules Digest 85 when I get a moment.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by CDavis7M »

Bandobras Took wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:59 pm
Unless he's suggesting that Open to the Summons is an alternate mechanism for character play entirely, and that a FW player need follow none of the normal FW rules for character play/draft.
Oh no! You summoned Theo!

Anyway, seems pretty clear that Digest 35 is wrong. The CRF restates 52. And 85 seems bogus. But now I'm at a point where i don't know who to believe.

(1) the rules
(2) Ichabod's digest
(3) how people actually play

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Theo
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by Theo »

First, you should play however you want to play. But your opponent should probably be on the same page if you want the game to conclude amicably.

To that end, "everyone plays this way" is always inadequate justification by itself, because (1) no one knows how "everyone" plays, and (2) even if everyone was playing that way there is nothing stopping someone from deciding to play a different way and ruining that argument. So publicly available rules records (official or unofficial)---or lengthy consensus discussions covering all possible disagreements---are the only way to unify play groups without ambiguity.

All of Ichabod's rulings had time to be included in the CRF if deemed worthy/relevant. That's not to say they weren't official, just that the CRF supercedes them (where disagreements arise). So when in doubt, use the CRF.

Furthermore, some of Ichabod's rulings occurred prior to published rule books, so those rule books should also take precedent over Ichabod's rulings.

Personally I see the role of Ichabod's rulings at this point mainly as clarifying the intent behind ambiguous wording within the CRF.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Theo
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by Theo »

Anyway, I essentially agree with Bandobras regarding ICE Ruling Digest 85. Also the CoE has repeatedly upheld similar restrictions from CoE #11 through #47.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Mind alteration during the character draft

Post by CDavis7M »

Not sure why you mention house rules here.

The collection of rulings (CRF) is merely a subset of the rulings written by the same guy, the same guy who contributed to the writing of the published Player Guides. You can see much of the CRF is copied directly from the digest.

And plus, the rulings don't need to be consistent with the rules or with the CRF (eg no Gates of Morning in the site phase before facing the auto attack). There are numerous examples.

And the CoE is often unaware of the prior ICE rulings and they have internal inconsistencies as well. Here, ICE has already decided the issue.

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