Not Allowed - Playing cards in the site phase before facing the automatic attack

[CDavis7M]

It seems like you should be able to play Gates of Morning in the site phase before the automatic attack. The rules and CRF seem to indicate that you can but the ICE Digests have consistently ruled that you cannot. The ICE Digests often do not bother to explain. At first, I thought the rulings were inconsistent with the Rules and CRF (and they somewhat are), but after discovering and reading the reasoning, I can appreciate their interpretation. I will present the rules and share the explanation from the Digests.

RESOURCE CARDS, NON-EVENT
Certain resource cards may only be played if specific required conditions exist. A faction card, ally card, or item card must be played during your site phase and requires an untapped character and an untapped site. In addition, the company must face any automatic-attacks located at the same site before such a card can be played. Resource events do not generally require an untapped site nor that the automatic-attack to be faced. This may vary based upon specific card text.

A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.

From these statements, it appears that resource events that are not played by a company (e.g., an entity associated with a company) can be played in the site phase before facing the automatic-attack.

However, the ICE Digests disagree. This is their interpretation:

>From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>
>
>1) I quote from CRF8(Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General):
>
>@ A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they
>have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an
>automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it,
>although cancelling does.
>
>Is this ruling meant to apply only to resources that must be played during
>the site phase or what?
It applies to anything done during the site phase.
>Or does it supersede, "Resource short-events and permanent-events can be
>played at any time during your turn --- as limited by specific card text."
>(CLARIFICATION top of p. 41 MELE rules); and, "Resource events generally do
>not require an untapped site nor that the automatic attack to (sic) be
>faced. This may vary based upon specific card text."
>(First paragraph p.42 MELE rules)?

Events don't generally require facing the automatic attack, because they
can be played outside the site phase. Try p.70: (Note - this is p. 70 in METW, or 94 in MELE)
"Site phase
"In the order you decide ... each of your companies at an untapped site
may:
"* do nothing *or*
"follow this procedure:
"1)You decide to enter and explore the site
"2)If the site has an automatic-attack, it attacks the company"

In article <PITZ.98Ma...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de>,
pi...@acds16.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Pitz ) wrote:
> In article <ichabod-2603...@dialin1115.cstone.net>
ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien) writes:
>
>
> You can't play We Have Come to Kill during the site phase before the
> automatic-attack is faced. That's the rules. You can't do anything
> during the site phase before the automatic-attack is faced, unless
> it involves facing the automatic-attack. Therefore, you can't bring
> a character into play with WHCtK during the site phase if no one
> else is at the site, since you can never face the automatic-attack
> before doing so.
>
> The Rules say:
> "A company (!) may not play any resource during the site phase until they have
> faced all automatic-attacks"
>
> But there is no company!
> And We Have Come To Kill is not played by a company.

It does not matter. You may not play anything during a site phase, unless
the company whose site phase it is has entered the site and thus faced
the automatic-attack.
Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there
is no company, there is no site phase.

> This would include I cannot play, say a Gates of
> Morning, if I have faced at least one automatic attack at one site.

I think you mean 'if I have *not* faced at least one...' In that case
it is true. You must have faced an automatic attack to play Gates
of Morning during the site phase.

> So, I cannot play a Marvel's Told, which I had just drawn, to remove a Despair
> of The Heart because I don't want to make a corruption check when a character
> becomes wouded by the automatick attack?

Nope.

> So, I cannot play Dark Tryst in the site phase to draw more cards and to
decide
> after that if I will enter the site? (Can be nice while waiting at a dragon's
> lair if you're waiting for your hoard item).

Nope.

> Or, how about that:
>
> I have a Ringwraith at a Darkhaven. He enters the site (no auto), THEN "he"
> plays We Have Come To Kill.
> After that, the company (of one character) which has just come into play
> will face their automatick attack if they want to play something.

That only works if you bring the character into play at the site with
the Ringwraith. Since the character is joining a company, that company
must have faced the automatic attack that turn.

(Note, this last Q/A assumes that We Have Come to Kill cannot be used to bring in a character at a brand new site, which has been ruled based on the same reasoning that "each company has their own site phase.")

The confusion regarding the Site Phase probably arises from the fact that the "Player Turn", which includes all phases and not just the site phase, is given only 1 page of discussion in the Starter MELE Rules, 1 line in the Standard MELE Rules, and a quarter of a page in the MELE+METW rules. All of these "rules" regarding the site phase are in the "FULL PLAYER TURN SUMMARY" at the end of the booklet.

It's labeled a Summary... summary of what? It should be labeled "Player Turn-Phase Rules."

[Bandobras Took]

It's not helped by the fact that most people tend to conflate a company's site phase with a player's site phase.

During his turn, a player has a site phase that consists of the site phases of each of his companies. (See, for example, Saruman's Machinery, which refers to "your" site phase, as compared to Lost in Free-domains, which states a company must do nothing during "its" site phase.)

So that already punctures a large hole in "Think about it. There is one site phase for each company. If there is no company, there is no site phase."

If this were true, then "An Untimely Brood" would allow the play of as many allies as you have companies each site phase. And Padding Feet becomes ridiculously easy; just have a few one-minders at a Darkhaven.

The question of what actions a player is allowed to take during the site phase outside of company actions is unclear.

However, events that can be played even if you have no company on the board are clearly not played by the company -- otherwise they could not be played.

The Balrog Rules Summary is turning out to offer more clarifications than I originally thought. Under Site Phase:

To do anything during the site phase, you must first enter the site etc.

This is pretty unambiguous. If you can't first enter the site, whatever site it happens to be, you can't do anything. You would have a site phase that consists of you doing nothing, just as River makes a company have a site phase that consists of them doing nothing rather than following the procedure for entering the site.

[CDavis7M]

It's not helped by the fact that most people tend to conflate a company's site phase with a player's site phase.

The ICE Digest interpretation seems to be that a player does NOT actually have their own general "Movement/Hazard Phase" or his own "Site Phase" beyond those of their companies. Instead, the ICE Digest interpretation seems to be that the player has a series of Movement/Hazard phases (one for each company) and then a series of Site phases (one for each company). There is no larger player's "site phase" that includes the various company's site phases. But, if this is the case, why wasn't this added to the CRF? Who knows. Maybe it was shot down? Maybe ICE thought it was clear from the original rule?

It definitely isn't clear. The Turn Summary suggests that the player themselves actually does have a general Movement/Hazard phase and a general Site phase. And the rules and cards often refer to "the site phase" and not specifically "a company's site phase."

Still, the ICE interpretation is not completely broken if we interpret the term "site phase" as referring to the site phase of a company:

• Saruman's Machinery would refer to the site phase corresponding to the site it is played on.
• Padding Feet would refer to the site phase of the company containing the scout character it is played on.

But An Untimely Brood raises an interesting question. The wording suggests that the Player has a site phase separate from the individual company site phases. This would require more work to fit.

Too bad there are no clear rules on this in the CRF.

The Balrog Rules Summary is turning out to offer more clarifications than I originally thought. Under Site Phase:

To do anything during the site phase, you must first enter the site etc.

This is pretty unambiguous. If you can't first enter the site, whatever site it happens to be, you can't do anything. You would have a site phase that consists of you doing nothing, just as River makes a company have a site phase that consists of them doing nothing rather than following the procedure for entering the site.

You must first enter the site to do anything during the site phase? Is that during the company's site phase or during the player's general site phase? Ugh... this brings us back to the beginning.

The best example I can think of is Rebuild the Town. This card and its issue got a TON of attention. It was being used to remove the automatic attacks so that they didn't have to be faced. It received errata to prevent this abuse. However, the errata doesn't actually work unless you adopt the ICE Digest interpretation that the "site phase" is really a series of company site phases, without there being a larger, general site phase of the player that includes each of the site phases of their companies.

Rebuild the Town

• Card Erratum: Replace "Playable on" with "Playable during the site phase on."
• See also Turn Sequence, Site Phase, General.

To prevent the abuse by this errata, Rebuild the Town must ONLY be playable during the site phase of the company that is at the site that Rebuild the Town is played on. This relates to the CRF statement indicating that a site is not an entity of a company.

"Site phase, General" is not helpful very helpful on this issue given that the site is not an entity of the company. Even if the statement regarding "removing" automatics is directly pointing to Rebuild the Town.

Site Phase
General

• Items, factions and allies must be played during the site phase.
• There is no one resource card per site phase rule. However, the tapping of the site usually limits you to one card per site phase.
• The site taps upon successful play of the resource that would tap it.
• A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack. Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.
• You may only play a free minor item after playing an ally, faction, or item that taps the site.
• See also Rulings by Term, Item.
• Play of an ally, item, faction, or resource card which will normally tap the site must be after the company resolves all automatic, agent and on-guard creature attacks.

Both interpretations can work and end up at the same result. But different cards would need to be changed as you pointed out.

[Konrad Klar]

The best example I can think of is Rebuild the Town. This card and its issue got a TON of attention. It was being used to remove the automatic attacks so that they didn't have to be faced. It received errata to prevent this abuse. However, the errata doesn't actually work unless you adopt the ICE Digest interpretation that the "site phase" is really a series of company site phases, without there being a larger, general site phase of the player that includes each of the site phases of their companies.

If you are assigning the errata such purpose, then actually it does not work.
But without the errata Rebuild the Town would be much powerful than it is with it. It could be used in M/H phase to fizzle hazards that require and thanks to being played outside site phase it could allow for increased drawing of card during hand reconciling.

[CDavis7M]

Yes that is the issue. The errata to Rebuild the Town has the stated purpose of preventing a player from removing the automatic attack before facing it. But the rules indicate that you can still play Rebuild the Town before facing the automatic attack. Fizzling creatures is a nice bonus that was removed by the errata.

The fact that the purpose of the errata was not achieved indicates that whoever wrote the errata had a different interpretation of the Site Phase rules than the person writing the rules book. This should probably be clarified.

Say you have 1 company at Rivendell and 1 company at a site with an automatic attack. Under either interpretation (Digest vs Rules), you may enter Rivendell and play Gates of Morning. This is nice Sun is in play and it will help the other company against the automatic attack.

But say you have a single company at a site with an automatic attack. Under the Rules interpretation (not Digest interpretation) you may play Gates of Morning. Under the Digest interpretation you may not play Gates of Morning until after you face the automatic attack.

I don't think there is any reason to restrict the play of Gates of Morning in the site phase simply because it was the last card you drew in the M/H phase and you don't have a second company to "sneak" it into play for another company (that may wish Sun was enhanced by Gates).

But maybe some people think that Gates should not be playable in the site phase before facing the automatic attack if you only have 1 company? The ICE Digest thinks this way.

[Konrad Klar]

Yes that is the issue. The errata to Rebuild the Town has the stated purpose of preventing a player from removing the automatic attack before facing it.

No. The errata states what it states:

Card Erratum: Replace "Playable on" with "Playable during the site phase on."

It says nothing about its purpose.

Playable during the site phase on a lone scout minion (no other character or allies in his company) at the same site as a hero company containing a Hobbit. Also playable on a lone minion controlling Stinker (discard this card if Stinker leaves the company). If during the a following site phase target character is at the same site as the Hobbit, tap this card (site must be entered). This card never untaps. If then during a following site phase, target character is at the same site as the Hobbit, invert this card (rotate it 180ř) (site must be entered). If inverted, this card may be stored at a Darkhaven - only if stored do you receive its marshalling points.

So it is not problem to articulate the intention that effect of a card (or a card itself) requires entering a site (that involves facing eventual automatic attack). But the intention, if actually exists, must be articulated.

[CDavis7M]

It would be nice if the purpose was stated as a clarification but it is not. The purpose of the errata was stated by Ichabod. But again, there are some discrepancies between what he says and what makes it into the CRF.

.
Craig: These days the process is
pretty simple. First a card is brought to
our attention as being too powerful.
This is usually done by players,
although sometimes we notice it
ourselves. In the case of Muster,
players pointed out to Mike Reynolds
that the card was just too powerful. In
the case of Rebuild the Town, it
became apparent from the questions
we were being asked that players were
using the card in an unintended, and
much more powerful way, than we
ever intended. The next step is to
figure out what exactly the problem is
and how to fix it. In the case of
Rebuild the Town the problem was
people were playing it before the
automatic-attack, so we made it
playable only in the site phase. The
final step is to sit back and take the
heat for it.

As if there was a rule that playing a permanent event on a site in the site phase must occur after facing the automatic attack.

[Bandobras Took]

Statements of ICE intent are wonderful. I wish we had more of them.