Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

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Konrad Klar
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Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

Alone and Unadvised wrote:Corruption. Playable on a non-Wizard, non-Ringwraith character in a company with 3 of fewer characters. Target character makes a corruption check at the end of his movement/hazard phase for each region he moved through. All of his corruption check are modified by adding the number of characters in his company. During his organization phase, the character may tap to attempt to remove this card by making a roll (drawing a #)-if the result is greater than 6, discard this card. Discard this card if his company has 4 or more characters. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.
CRF wrote:If a company returns to its site of origin, its site path immediately disappears, and its
movement/hazard phase immediately ends.
Does the character with Alone and Unadvised the corruption checks after returning his company and before hand reconciling?
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by CDavis7M »

If the character with Alone and Unadvised has returned to their site of origin, then they have not "moved" and are considered to have not "moved through" any regions. So no corruption checks are made. Same with Lure of Nature. This is in the ICE Digests.

Annotation 25a seems to be restrictive of corruption-helpers for Alone and Unadvised but I don't think that it is. Annotation 25a states " A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company." But there are already some resource active conditions and many resource/hazard passive conditions triggered at/by the end of the M/H phase. Annotation 25a clearly doesn't restrict those effects and so it doesn't restrict corruption-support actions or play of corruption-helpers in response to such effects.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Tue May 19, 2020 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

I know that you are treating A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded and end of M/H phase as the same. I do not.

If company is returned it means that it moved.

Lure of Nature checks for [-me_wi-] in company's site path. It does not check for each region he moved through.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:46 pm
I know that you are treating A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded and end of M/H phase as the same. I do not.
That's OK because the differences between my interpretation and yours don't matter to gameplay. Still, the rules give me no reason to differentiate between the "conclusion" and the "end" of the M/H phase.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:46 pm
If company is returned it means that it moved.
Surely the company was "moving" in order to be "returned." I get this interpretation. But "moving" is not the same as "moved."

If a company is returned to their origin, then they haven't "moved" according to the game. It is all or nothing. This is not my opinion. It is ICE's ruling in the Digests (and with respect to this exact question).
Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:46 pm
Lure of Nature checks for [-me_wi-] in company's site path. It does not check for each region he moved through.
I see the difference. But apparently failure to have completed the movement does not count as having "moved through" a region.

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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm
Still, the rules give me no reason to differentiate between the "conclusion" and the "end" of the M/H phase.
Because you are ignoring CRF entry for Lure of Nature.
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all
other hazards have been played." Corruption checks from Lure of Nature do not
trigger if its bearer's company returns to its site of origin. The corruption checks
caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/
hazard phase. Of course, the character's player can play resources to modify the
corruption checks. The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the
hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly
affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no
other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm
I see the difference. But apparently failure to have completed the movement does not count as having "moved through" a region.
A failure to have completed the movement does not count as reaching a new site. It does not necessarily means that region between site of origin and new site was not moved through. Especially if something requiring the region/its type has been successfully played before returning.

All underlines mine.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:48 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm
Still, the rules give me no reason to differentiate between the "conclusion" and the "end" of the M/H phase.
Because you are ignoring CRF entry for Lure of Nature.
I'm not ignoring it. We have discussed it before:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=3587&start=15 wrote:
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:44 pm
Each phase has its beginning and its end in which the phase lasts.
Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase.
So so-called end of movement/hazard phase must happen before.

You may deny if you want and then you may logically conclude that ccs from Lure of Nature never happen because at the end of movement/hazard phase a company has no path.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:49 pm
Lure of Nature
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all other hazards have been played."
Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:04 pm
Significant change, especially if to read the rest of entry for Lure of Nature.
The Lure of Nature errata was so early in the life of the game that it shows ICE's immaturity. The Lure of Nature errata clarification came in CRF V2. Both of these statements were made BEFORE annotation 25a and before the release of Alone and Unadvised. I bet that if Lure of Nature received errata or was released at the same time as Alone and Unadvised, it would state "at the end of his movement/hazard phase for each for each wilderness [-me_wi-] that he moved through," similar to Alone and Unadvised. But ICE was resistant to further errata and so this is what we have: the corruption checks of Lure of Nature are triggered upon the agreement of the players to stop hazard play instead of being triggered at the end of the M/H phase. The result is basically the same except that the site-path is still in play and the hazard player can still play hazards (e.g., Many Sorrows to cancel an corruption helper card).

As mentioned above, the meaning of "at the end of the afflicted character's movement/hazard phase" in the Lure of Nature CRF statement came before the M/H phase terminology was defined in Annotation 25a. Therefore, the understanding of the M/H ending provided by Annotation 25a supersedes any understanding to be taken from Lure of Nature's CRF statement.

----------
Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:48 am
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all
other hazards have been played." Corruption checks from Lure of Nature do not
trigger if its bearer's company returns to its site of origin. The corruption checks
caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/
hazard phase. Of course, the character's player can play resources to modify the
corruption checks. The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the
hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly
affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no
other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm
I see the difference. But apparently failure to have completed the movement does not count as having "moved through" a region.
A failure to have completed the movement does not count as reaching a new site. It does not necessarily means that region between site of origin and new site was not moved through. Especially if something requiring the region/its type has been successfully played before returning.

All underlines mine.
I understand the reasoning and it makes sense when considering the "simulation" of traveling Middle Earth. But this reasoning has been denounced by ICE in the Digests - the mechanics take precedence over the simulation in this respect. Within the mechanics of the game, the regions aren't "moved through" unless the company arrives at their new site. If the game were to simulate travel as you suggest, that would raise the following problems as described by ICE:
ICE wrote:There would be times that the Cave Drake is not playable, since the Wilderness regions would be split by another region. There would be time when Orc-lieutenant wouldn't get the bonus from Orc-warriors or Orc-raiders, and the same for Orc-warband. Chill Douser would frequently be unable to boost other Undead, since it is only keyed to sites. I'm sure there are more, but those are the first three that sprung to mind.
It would also stop almost all tactical play of creatures, where you play more powerful creatures after tapping out certain characters with a weaker creature.
Given the mechanics:
Character with Alone and Unadvised is sent back to site of Origin. How many corruption checks would that character make, if any at all?
None. They are made at the end of the movement/hazard phase, and at the end of the movement/hazard phase, any company that has been returned to its site of origin has no site path. Therefore he has not travelled through any regions, and makes no checks.

----------

This discussion reminded me of this passage:

The genealogical trees at the end of the Red Book of Westmarch are a small book in themselves, and all but Hobbits would find them exceedingly dull. Hobbits delighted in such things, if they were accurate: they liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions.

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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:04 pm
I'm not ignoring it. We have discussed it before:
You are questioning it, you are not ignoring it.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

I'm not speaking about what and how is/is not simulated in the game*.
I'm speaking about how some statements expressed in English translate into technical terms.

Can we say that a company returned to a site of origin is a company that is did not move this turn?

*) I believe that the game simulates its theme no more than thematic pinball simulates its theme.
Does not simulate, only symbolizes.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Theo »

CoE has previously ruled that there is no "end of the movement/hazard phase" period for a company that is returned to it's site of origin. This would imply that there is no chance for corruption checks from Alone and Unadvised.
CoE #63 wrote:*** I am overturning this ruling. These cards must be played "at the end of the movement/hazard phase" which means that they must still be played in that phase. Since the phase immediately ends when roadblocked, there is no time to invoke these effects.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

Conclusion that contradicts with arguments.

These cards must be played "at the end of the movement/hazard phase"
Since the phase immediately ends

So there is end of the movement/hazard phase and for this reason something that can happen only at the end of the movement/hazard cannot happen.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Theo »

There is an immediate end of the movement/hazard phase. Perhaps effects that said they happened "at the immediate end of the movement/hazard phase" would still be able to happen? :roll:
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by CDavis7M »

Theo wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:05 am
CoE has previously ruled that there is no "end of the movement/hazard phase" period for a company that is returned to it's site of origin. This would imply that there is no chance for corruption checks from Alone and Unadvised.
CoE #63 wrote:*** I am overturning this ruling. These cards must be played "at the end of the movement/hazard phase" which means that they must still be played in that phase. Since the phase immediately ends when roadblocked, there is no time to invoke these effects.
The reasoning in CoE 63 is not needed. All of the discussed cards actually require a company to have successfully moved. Therefore they can't be played if returned to origin since the company didn't complete their movement.

The end of the movement phase still happens, it just happens at resolution of the return to origin effect because that effect removes the new site, which is similar to removing the old site, which ends the phase. Thereby removing the hazard limit, fizzling all other declared hazards.

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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:52 am
The end of the movement phase still happens, it just happens at resolution of the return to origin effect because that effect removes the new site, which is similar to removing the old site, which ends the phase. Thereby removing the hazard limit, fizzling all other declared hazards.
"...removes the new site the new site, which is similar to removing the old site..."
that is also similar to removing new site after failed movement roll in under-deeps movement.

"Thereby removing the hazard limit, fizzling all other declared hazards."
is natural consequence of belief that end of the movement phase is the same as movement/hazard phase is concluded.
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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by CDavis7M »

Bottom line: there is an ICE ruling on this exact question and a reasonable rationale in the rules.

Underdeeps movement has its own rules and CRF rulings. It is similar but defined to be different.

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Re: Alone and Unadvised AND Returning to a site of origin

Post by Konrad Klar »

Dark minions wrote:Each adjacent site is followed by a number in parentheses—this number indicates
how difficult it is to move from the Under-deeps site to the adjacent site. When an
adjacent site is revealed by one of your companies whose site of origin is an Underdeeps
site, you must make a roll (2D6). If the result is greater than or equal to the
number in parentheses following the adjacent site as listed on its site of origin, the
movement/hazard phase proceeds normally. Otherwise, the company returns to its
site of origin and the movement/hazard phase proceeds as if the company had not
moved.
Underline mine.
CRF wrote:Rules Erratum: If a company returns to it's site of origin, it may do nothing during it's
site phase. A company failing it's underdeeps movement roll is not effected by this
rule.
Regardless of similarities between removing of a site of origin and removing of a new site, the latter does not necessarily mean that a company's movement/hazard phase is concluded.
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