Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:48 am
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm
Still, the rules give me no reason to differentiate between the "conclusion" and the "end" of the M/H phase.
Because you are ignoring CRF entry for Lure of Nature.
I'm not ignoring it. We have discussed it before:
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=3587&start=15 wrote:
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:44 pm
Each phase has its beginning and its end in which the phase lasts.
Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase.
So so-called end of movement/hazard phase must happen before.
You may deny if you want and then you may logically conclude that ccs from Lure of Nature never happen because at the end of movement/hazard phase a company has no path.
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:49 pm
Lure of Nature
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all other hazards have been played."
Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:04 pm
Significant change, especially if to read the rest of entry for Lure of Nature.
The Lure of Nature errata was so early in the life of the game that it shows ICE's immaturity. The Lure of Nature errata clarification came in CRF V2. Both of these statements were made BEFORE annotation 25a and before the release of Alone and Unadvised. I bet that if Lure of Nature received errata or was released at the same time as Alone and Unadvised, it would state "at the end of his movement/hazard phase for each for each wilderness
that he moved through," similar to Alone and Unadvised. But ICE was resistant to further errata and so this is what we have: the corruption checks of Lure of Nature are triggered upon the agreement of the players to stop hazard play instead of being triggered at the end of the M/H phase. The result is basically the same except that the site-path is still in play and the hazard player can still play hazards (e.g., Many Sorrows to cancel an corruption helper card).
As mentioned above, the meaning of "
at the end of the afflicted character's movement/hazard phase" in the Lure of Nature CRF statement came before the M/H phase terminology was defined in Annotation 25a. Therefore, the understanding of the M/H ending provided by Annotation 25a supersedes any understanding to be taken from Lure of Nature's CRF statement.
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Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:48 am
Card Erratum: Replace "at the end of each movement/hazard phase" with "after all
other hazards have been played." Corruption checks from Lure of Nature do not
trigger if its bearer's company returns to its site of origin. The corruption checks
caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/
hazard phase. Of course, the character's player can play resources to modify the
corruption checks. The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the
hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly
affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no
other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc.
CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:07 pm
I see the difference. But apparently failure to have completed the movement does not count as having "moved through" a region.
A failure to have completed the movement does not count as reaching a new site. It does not necessarily means that region between site of origin and new site was not moved through. Especially if something requiring the region/its type has been successfully played before returning.
All underlines mine.
I understand the reasoning and it makes sense when considering the "simulation" of traveling Middle Earth. But this reasoning has been denounced by ICE in the Digests - the mechanics take precedence over the simulation in this respect. Within the mechanics of the game, the regions aren't "moved through" unless the company arrives at their new site. If the game were to simulate travel as you suggest, that would raise the following problems as described by ICE:
ICE wrote:There would be times that the Cave Drake is not playable, since the Wilderness regions would be split by another region. There would be time when Orc-lieutenant wouldn't get the bonus from Orc-warriors or Orc-raiders, and the same for Orc-warband. Chill Douser would frequently be unable to boost other Undead, since it is only keyed to sites. I'm sure there are more, but those are the first three that sprung to mind.
It would also stop almost all tactical play of creatures, where you play more powerful creatures after tapping out certain characters with a weaker creature.
Given the mechanics:
Character with Alone and Unadvised is sent back to site of Origin. How many corruption checks would that character make, if any at all?
None. They are made at the end of the movement/hazard phase, and at the end of the movement/hazard phase, any company that has been returned to its site of origin has no site path. Therefore he has not travelled through any regions, and makes no checks.
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This discussion reminded me of this passage:
The genealogical trees at the end of the Red Book of Westmarch are a small book in themselves, and all but Hobbits would find them exceedingly dull. Hobbits delighted in such things, if they were accurate: they liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions.