Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

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Konrad Klar
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Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:48 am

Press-gang wrote:When a character would otherwise be discarded from play, discard all cards on him, place him "off to the side" with this card, and return any character already with this card to its owner's hand. A character with this card gives his player negative character marshalling points. Cannot be duplicated. "They were a gang of the smaller breeds being driven unwilling to their Dark Lord's wars..."-LotRVI
Pallando the Soul-keeper wrote:Unique. Maia. Manifestation of Pallando. Two strikes. Detainment and -3 prowess against hero companies. Discard this card if Pallando comes into play. As a creature, may be played keyed to Lindon, Númeriador, Arthedain, or Crdolan; or at sites in these regions. As a permanent-event, the next non-Ringwraith minion discarded from play is instead eliminated. Discard when a minion is so eliminated.
The two cards alter a discarding a character from play.
In case of non-Ringwraith minion character there is the conflict. The alterations cannot be joined; each precludes other.
I do not know a rule that would regulate which of alterations should be applied.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:46 pm

To be clear, the issue is with these two effects, right?:
  • When a character would otherwise be discarded from play, ... place him "off to the side" with this card.
  • The next non-Ringwraith minion discarded from play is instead eliminated.
I think the normal rules apply. Why don't you think so? What do you consider these effects to be?

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:06 am

If:
"When a character would otherwise be discarded from play, ... place him "off to the side" with this card."
will happen as first then
"The next non-Ringwraith minion discarded from play is instead eliminated."
will not happen. Cards placed "off to the side" are not affected by effects that do not refer explicitly to the cards places "off to the side".

If:
"The next non-Ringwraith minion discarded from play is instead eliminated."
will happen as first then
"When a character would otherwise be discarded from play, ... place him "off to the side" with this card."
will not happen. Because character is eliminated at this point.
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Theo
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Theo » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:20 pm

Sure, but the resource player generally gets to choose resolution order, no?
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:19 am

Not just generally, but specifically in this situation.

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:21 am

Theo wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:20 pm
Sure, but the resource player generally gets to choose resolution order, no?
Yes.
But there is nothing to resolve here.
The action "discard character from play" just has to happen.
Both Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper are trying to convert it to other action.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:54 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:21 am
But there is nothing to resolve here.
The action "discard character from play" just has to happen.
It "just happens"? Without resolution of an effect?

I don't see any need to rely on "it just happens without resolution" when the annotations to the rules provide mechanics that fit this situation and they also set timing rules to decide this exact question.

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Theo
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Theo » Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:41 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:21 am
Theo wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:20 pm
Sure, but the resource player generally gets to choose resolution order, no?
Yes.
But there is nothing to resolve here.
The action "discard character from play" just has to happen.
Both Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper are trying to convert it to other action.
Ah, I see your concern now. I was thinking they were using passive condition, but on thorough inspection I agree that they aren't. In that case, their effects resolved in whichever order they entered play. Whichever entered first makes the condition within the second's effect impossible.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:26 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:54 pm
It "just happens"?
No. It just has to happen, but it will not happen, because it will be replaced by other action.
CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:54 pm
Without resolution of an effect?
Regardless of what causes discarding of character. If it is an action or result of the action that has been declared, the action must resolve. Otherwise there will not be a "discard" action that would be converted by Press-gang OR Pallando the Soul-keeper into other action.

Similarly regardless of what has to heal a character with One Foe to Breed a War, it will not heal him. Instead One Foe to Breed a War will be discarded.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:39 am

By "just has to happen" I mean situation when game is halted, because it is not know how to proceed some operation.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:49 am

Theo wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:41 am
In that case, their effects resolved in whichever order they entered play. Whichever entered first makes the condition within the second's effect impossible.
Sounds like arbitrary ruling. Is it based on something?
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Theo
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Theo » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:20 am

Deduced from what it means to resolve the effects from playing a card.

At least, past CoE rulings are consistent with this:
CoE #57 wrote:If an effect is in play that was played during a previous chain of effect in the same movement/hazard phase, it's applied in the order in which the cards were played.
(I presume the inclusion of the same movement/hazard phase clause is present only to exclude effects that all are triggered---and thus are ordered---at the start of the movement/hazard phase. The motivating rationale should also apply to PallandoTSK & Press-gang.)
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
Double Standards.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:16 am

OK.
Due to lack of other known category in which effects of Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper (and discarding effect of One Foe to Breed a War) would fit, they must be categorized as "effects in play".
Thanks.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:25 am

Should be usable also in case: The Riddle Game VS Will Shaken.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:30 pm

Why would these effects of Press-Gang and Pallando the Soul-keeper not be triggered by passive conditions and follow those rules?
  • When a character would otherwise be discarded from play, ... place him "off to the side" with this card.
  • The next non-Ringwraith minion discarded from play is instead eliminated.
These effects of Press-gang and Pallando don't have a specific target initially. Instead, these effects cause actions to happen later in response to other actions.

----------
Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:25 am
Should be usable also in case: The Riddle Game VS Will Shaken.
Except, remember the timing rules. Discarding by The Riddle Game happens during resolution. Will Shaken's "place" action happens in response. The CoE ruled that Will Shaken is discarded by The Riddle Game but didn't reference the rules.

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