Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

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CDavis7M
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm

All cancellation effects (except attacks) require targeting of a declared effect because effects (except attribute modifications) cannot be taken back once resolved. (See ICE Digests 3, 51, 83, 517, 519, etc). This is why Goldberry's cancellation can target declared effects. This is why Marvels Told's discard (not cancel) effect can't.

For Beorning Skin-changers, the check for Beorn/Warrior is not the declared effect as you suggest. The check is a condition of the declared return-to-origin effect, which IS declared as are all actions printed on cards. As noted in the ICE Digests, Promptings of Wisdom can be can be declared in response to Beorning Skin-changers. There is no possibility to cancel the return-to-origin effect after it has happened.

As for Halfling Strength and Endless Whispers, the game doesn't provide for things to just happen without declaration. Endless Whisper's effect would be declared and cancel Halfling Strength's effect in the same chain of effects as Halfling Strength. Even when rolling against a strike, a wounding action (and also a discarding action for Orcs) is still declared (synonymous with declaring the dice roll) but it is conditioned upon the result of the resolved dice roll.



Going back to Press-gang and Pallando the Soul-keeper being in play with a Minion being discarded, I am now thinking that there would not be a timing issue for discarding a minion as Press-gang has the condition that the character "would otherwise be discarded" and the minion would not otherwise be discarded if Pallando the Soul-keeper were in play. Pallando's effect happens regardless of whether the character would otherwise be discarded. Still, I stand by my reasoning above if putting aside the "otherwise" issue.

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:26 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm
All cancellation effects (except attacks) require targeting of a declared effect because effects (except attribute modifications) cannot be taken back once resolved.
A cancellation is not taking back.
A resolution is not an execution. For instance the effect of tapping a character in support to cc is resolved when the cc is resolved. I.e. before the dice roll is performed.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm
As noted in the ICE Digests, Promptings of Wisdom can be can be declared in response to Beorning Skin-changers.
I do not know the ICE Digests you are speaking about, but according to text of Promptings of Wisdom, Target ranger may tap to cancel all hazard effects for the rest of the turn that: force his company to return to its site of origin
If for the rest of the turn has any meaning then, then tapping does not need to be performed in response.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm
There is no possibility to cancel the return-to-origin effect after it has happened.
Right.
In my opinion it is canceled when it is resolved and before it is executed.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm
As for Halfling Strength and Endless Whispers, the game doesn't provide for things to just happen without declaration.
For instance:
Annotation 9a: If a card is required to be discarded by some passive condition, the
card is discarded immediately when the condition resolves, not in the following chain
of effects.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:26 pm
A cancellation is not taking back.
I never said that "cancellation is taking back"... I said cancellation requires targeting a declared effect BECAUSE the effect cannot be taken back.

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:26 pm
A resolution is not an execution. For instance the effect of tapping a character in support to cc is resolved when the cc is resolved. I.e. before the dice roll is performed.
Not sure what you mean by "a resolution is not an execution."
Regardless of that, the action of tapping is the active condition of declaring the +1 targeting a corruption roll, which is why the tapping resolves before the roll. This is also why resolution of the +1 in support fails if the character untaps before the roll per Annotation 5. This is described in the ICE Digests. Tapping in support of a corruption roll has nothing to do with "a resolution is not an execution."

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:26 pm
I do not know the ICE Digests you are speaking about, but according to text of Promptings of Wisdom, Target ranger may tap to cancel all hazard effects for the rest of the turn that: force his company to return to its site of origin
If for the rest of the turn has any meaning then, then tapping does not need to be performed in response.
Do you mean you can't find the ICE Digest on Promptings? Where did you look?
And of course tapping of the Ranger for Promptings effect does not need to be done in response since the effect lasts for the rest of the turn, it can be done preemptively as well. You can do either: tap in response or tap preemptively.

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:26 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm
There is no possibility to cancel the return-to-origin effect after it has happened.
Right.
In my opinion it is canceled when it is resolved and before it is executed.
Ah I see what you mean by "a resolution is not an execution." However, rules don't describe "execution" of an effect separate from resolution. The return-to-origin effect is the action of removing the site card from play. The resolution of a return-to-origin effect IS the "execution" of removing of the card. The removal of the card is not some different action to be executed at some point later. What gave you this idea?

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:26 pm
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:59 pm
As for Halfling Strength and Endless Whispers, the game doesn't provide for things to just happen without declaration.
For instance:
Annotation 9a: If a card is required to be discarded by some passive condition, the
card is discarded immediately when the condition resolves, not in the following chain
of effects.
The rules on discarding in Annotation 9a are not relevant to your discussion of un/tapping actions by Endless Whispers and Halfling Strength. Or did you just bring it up to refute my point to distract from the lack of support for yours? Cute.

Also, Annotation 9a doesn't refute my point. While Annotation 9a doesn't describe the declaration of discarding the card that is required to be discarded by some passive condition that doesn't mean that the discarding of that card is not declared. Nowhere do the rules allow for actions to be resolved (or executed) without declaration. Instead, if resolution of discarding the card happens immediately when the condition resolves per Annotation 9a then the discarding (contingent on the condition) was necessarily declared immediately before the declaration of the condition, thereby letting it resolve immediately when the conditions resolves.

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:41 am

Theo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:37 am
Indeed, among the basest of lines.
zing! :lol:

Theo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:37 am
To deny a difference in wording, guise one mechanism with others, and then ignore the factual incompatibilities with the explicit rules! But as I said before, it is right in line with historic CoE netrep follies, so perhaps should be of no surprise.
Or just deny the compatibility mentioned above?
Even if Press-gang and Pallando were to modify "card rules" as you call it, they would still do so by the rules in Annotation 10 and 26.

Theo wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:37 am
Not to deviate from the original post, but simply to present what is a clear example to me:
A Strident Spawn wrote:Unique.[CRF] Playable if you are Pallando or Saruman and have 6 or more stage points and a protected Wizardhaven [ [-me_ha-] ]. Each of your half-orcs requires one less point of influence to control. During your organization phase, you may take one Half-orc character from your discard pile to your hand. You may play Half-orc characters at your Wizardhavens [ [-me_ha-] ], and even if your Fallen-wizard is not there. Cannot be duplicated by a given player.
Of course, I'm sure everything on this card could be a passive condition if we simply fabricate our own rules and ignore the actual words present!
Huh? I've said before, if there is an effect that refers to some specific rule (a rule that is in the Rulesbook) and there is no action that could be taken by that effect, then the effect modifies the referenced rule. Nothing I've said would suggest that I would think that everything on this card is a passive condition. You already saw what I said before:
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm
Effects of Events are either:
  • (A) An immediate action (almost every effect on an event, including immediate actions having active conditions)
  • (B) An action triggerable later by an active condition (mostly seen on some permanent events that tap)
  • (C) An action triggerable later by a passive condition (mostly seen on long and permanent events)
In rare cases, a card will have:
  • (D) An effect that modifies the rules of the game by referencing that rule (mostly on permanent stage events from MEWH)
  • (E) A handful of exceptions that could fall under (B) by using a mostly meaningless "tap this card to" active condition (see discussion of Armory, etc. below)
Short-events only ever do (A) or (C), and (C) is rare. I haven't noticed short-events that have other effects. I can't think of any short events that create a lasting effect that let you (B) perform some active condition later to trigger an action later on in the turn.

So, how can you tell what category an effect is? Start by assuming that it's (A) an immediate actions and see if that works. Does it (1) have an action and (2) have a specific target and (3) can be done immediately. If this is true, you're done. If not, why not?

Does the action not have (2) a specific target? Does it specify an action but that action applies to non-specific targets like "each" or "all" of something? Or is the target potentially not in play yet? Or is the action waiting for something to happen that hasn't happened yet? If so, it's (C) an action triggered by a passive condition.

Or is it not possible to (3) take the action immediately? Why can't the action be taken? Does the action require an entity to be tapped or discarded but that entity is potentially not in play (the entity is not required by this card)? Then it's (B) an action triggered by an active condition. If the action can't be taken because the target is not in play or the action is waiting for something to happen, see the points on (C) above.

Or, rarely, does the effect not even (1) specify an action that can be taken? Does the effect state when/how a class of actions can occur without specifying a particular action to be taken? Then the effect is (D) an effect that modifies the rules. By reading the effect, you can determine which corresponding rule is being modified.

What if it seems like the effect is under category (D) since it is an effect that allows you to do something beyond the rules, but then there is no corresponding rule that would be modified (meaning the effect is new)? Then the effect is likely under category (E) an exceptional effect that could have and probably should have been written with (B) an active condition to tap the card.
Each of your half-orcs requires one less point of influence to control. -- There is no action to be taken by this effect. It references the rules on "INFLUENCING (CONTROLLING) A CHARACTER." This effect falls under (D).

During your organization phase, you may take one Half-orc character from your discard pile to your hand. -- There is an action to take but "during your organization phase" indicates that this is not an immediate action. Yet, there is no active or passive condition to trigger the action. There are a few other cards like this that let the player declare their effect without the effect being triggered by a condition. This falls under (E).

You may play Half-orc characters at your Wizardhavens [ [-me_ha-] ], and even if your Fallen-wizard is not there. -- This effect also has an action but "even if your Fallen-wizard is not there" references the Standard rule on "BRINGING CHARACTERS INTO PLAY," indicating that this is not an immediate action. This falls under (D).

What about Press-gang and Pallando the Soul-keeper?

Press-gang states: "When a character would otherwise be discarded from play, discard all cards on him, place him "off to the side" with this card" -- there is an action to be taken - discarding other cards placing the character off to the side. These actions happen when "a character would otherwise be discarded from play." Thus, the effects of Press-gang can't be taken immediately because the action is waiting for something to happen. And so it falls under (C) passive conditions. There are no rules in the rulesbook being referenced by Press-gang's effect. Press-gang does not change the play area that the character would go to when they are discarded. Press-gang does not modify the rules on discarding. Press-gang does not reference any rules. An effect cannot modify a particular rule if that rule doesn't exist.

Pallando the Soul-keeper states: "the next non-Ringwraith minion discarded from play is instead eliminated." Just as with Press-gang, Pallando does not modify any particular rule in the rulesbook. Instead, it has an effect that is waiting to come into play. It falls under (C).


Regardless of whether Press-gang and Pallando replace actions OR cancel an action and create a new action, their effects come into play using the rules on passive conditions. If there were a timing issue, it would be handled by Annotation 10 and 26.


But, as I mentioned above, I no longer think that there is a timing issue because Press-gang's effect would not happen if Pallando the Soul-keeper would eliminate the character instead the character being discarded as then the character would not "otherwise be discarded" as required by Press-gang.

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:20 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 pm
Ah I see what you mean by "a resolution is not an execution." However, rules don't describe "execution" of an effect separate from resolution. The return-to-origin effect is the action of removing the site card from play. The resolution of a return-to-origin effect IS the "execution" of removing of the card. The removal of the card is not some different action to be executed at some point later. What gave you this idea?
1. Can you say that cc from Marvels Told played by (and also on) ally never resolves?
I would say that it resolves but it is not executed (is not performed, is not done).
2. Declared non dice-rolling action cannot be targeted (nor affected) in general.
An action that could cancel it must be exception from the rule.
If it is not such exception it may be executed only when the to be canceled action is resolved. And it is not declared/does not resolve at this point; this would interrupt already resolving chain of effects.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 pm
The rules on discarding in Annotation 9a are not relevant to your discussion of un/tapping actions by Endless Whispers and Halfling Strength. Or did you just bring it up to refute my point to distract from the lack of support for yours? Cute.
It is relevant to statement "As for Halfling Strength and Endless Whispers, the game doesn't provide for things to just happen without declaration."
Some actions (other than declared) may happen in middle of resolving chain of effects.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:16 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:02 pm
I never said that "cancellation is taking back"... I said cancellation requires targeting a declared effect BECAUSE the effect cannot be taken back.
I can agree, that once applied, result of an action cannot be canceled.
Processes (like faced attacks), ongoing effects (like treating [-me_fh-] as [-me_bh-] by some time) may be canceled while they are in play.
For actions that have an immediate result, that is not process nor ongoing effect, it is too late to invoke "cancel" action when the result is already applied.
This is a reason for which the dice-rolling actions can be targeted while merely declared, and for which cards that cancel short-event contain a clause "before it resolve".

But cancellation does not require an invoking "cancel" action. It may mean that some action just cannot happen, or cannot be executed.
What happens to the 2nd and 3rd attack of Nameless Thing if 1st attack will eliminate a company facing it?
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm

When an Ally taps while playing Marvels Told, not only is the corruption check not resolved, it is never declared because an invalid target cannot satisfy the active condition.

Card text overrides the rules and the term "cancel" does this by itself since to "cancel" in this game means to prevent the resolution of a previously declared effect. Card text stating "declared earlier" or "before resolved" with respect to a cancellation effect are superfluous.

If an action resolves "in middle of resolving chain of effects" then the action was necessarily declared in the middle of declaring the chain of effects per the rules on Actions and Chains of Effects.

While the Rules and Digests differentiate between Attacks and Effects of Events, they do not differentiate between "ongoing effects" and "an immediate result." The example of "treating [-me_fh-] as [-me_bh-]" is actually an immediate effect, not an "ongoing effect." Such triggered effects are only resolved once. If anything were "ongoing" it would be the effect that triggered the "treating" action since that effect remains in play.

Attributes of a card are in play, so resolved effects that targeted an Attribute can be removed. Other mechanics of the game are not "in play" (a tapped state is not in play) and so resolved effects that implement such mechanics (tapping) cannot be taken back.

Cancellation of attacks is different from cancellation of effects of events. Resolution of creating an attack (playing a creature in a chain of effects) is separate from the resolution of the attack (resolving every strike of the creature's attack). If the company was eliminated, the strikes of the later attacks of Nameless thing could not be assigned/declared without a valid target.

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Theo » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:19 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:41 am
Thus, the effects of Press-gang can't be taken immediately because the action is waiting for something to happen.
Maybe I'm confused about what you are thinking "the action" is. There is no indication of anything happening to be able to trigger a passive condition on Press-gang. A character being discarded is something happening, but because Press-gang replaces that discard it can't be triggered by it. A character potentially being discarded is not, in fact, anything actually happening.
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:41 am
Press-gang does not modify the rules on discarding. Press-gang does not reference any rules. An effect cannot modify a particular rule if that rule doesn't exist.
We clearly have different interpretations. To me, "Do X instead of discarding a character when the character would be discarded" definitively modifies the rules on discarding a character, i.e. by replacing them with another effect X. Press-gang explicitly mentions replacing a character being discarded. You seem to think that discarding a character is not rules-based; were this so, it would be meaningless text, devoid of implementability. Perhaps you can focus more on that point.

My conclusion: even under your A-E categories, I would place Press-gang clearly in D, much more clearly than the mere suggestion "even if your Fallen-wizard is not there" that seemed sufficient for you for the third A Strident Spawn effect.
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:51 am

So, what is your conclusion of what actually happens when a minion is discarded when Pallando the Soul-keeper and Press-gang are both in play?

I've concluded that the minion is eliminated by Pallando the Soul-keeper because the minion would not "otherwise be discarded from play" as required by Press-gang. And if this were not the case and there were a timing issue, the timing would be governed by the rules on passive conditions such that the resource player would determine the order per Annotation 10, unless the discarding happened during the M/H phase and Pallando the Soul-keeper and Press-gang were both in play at the beginning of the current M/H phase, in which case the hazard player would have decided at the start per Annotation 26.

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:37 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm
When an Ally taps while playing Marvels Told, not only is the corruption check not resolved, it is never declared because an invalid target cannot satisfy the active condition.
So why the ally can tap at all while playing Marvels Told if the ally is not valid target of corruption check from Marvels Told?
How is it different from tapping non-sage character to play Marvels Told?
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm
Cancellation of attacks is different from cancellation of effects of events. Resolution of creating an attack (playing a creature in a chain of effects) is separate from the resolution of the attack (resolving every strike of the creature's attack). If the company was eliminated, the strikes of the later attacks of Nameless thing could not be assigned/declared without a valid target.
What happens to the 2nd and 3rd attack of Nameless Thing if the riddling attempt of Riddling Talk against 1st attack is successful?
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:01 pm

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:37 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm
When an Ally taps while playing Marvels Told, not only is the corruption check not resolved, it is never declared because an invalid target cannot satisfy the active condition.
So why the ally can tap at all while playing Marvels Told if the ally is not valid target of corruption check from Marvels Told?
An ally can be a Sage. Marvels Told requires tapping a Sage to perform the discarding action. So an ally that is a Sage can tap for Marvels Told. This is why some allies have skills.

Characters have a corruption point total. A corruption check requires a corruption point total. There is nothing stating that an ally has a corruption point total or that an ally may be regarded as a character for purposes of corruption. And corruption and corruption checks are described with respect to characters only. So an ally cannot be the target of a corruption check.

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:37 am
How is it different from tapping non-sage character to play Marvels Told?
This is not the only instance of the same target being valid for one effect and invalid for another effect of the same card. This same issue happens with Ahunt dragons.
A non-sage character is not a sage... The corruption check has the same target as the tapping action so a non-sage could not be the target of either.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:37 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm
Cancellation of attacks is different from cancellation of effects of events. Resolution of creating an attack (playing a creature in a chain of effects) is separate from the resolution of the attack (resolving every strike of the creature's attack). If the company was eliminated, the strikes of the later attacks of Nameless thing could not be assigned/declared without a valid target.
What happens to the 2nd and 3rd attack of Nameless Thing if the riddling attempt of Riddling Talk against 1st attack is successful?
Is this a trick question? If the named card is in opponent's hand, the creature's card is discarded (all of its attacks are canceled).

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:04 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:01 pm
An ally can be a Sage. Marvels Told requires tapping a Sage to perform the discarding action. So an ally that is a Sage can tap for Marvels Told. This is why some allies have skills.

Characters have a corruption point total. A corruption check requires a corruption point total. There is nothing stating that an ally has a corruption point total or that an ally may be regarded as a character for purposes of corruption. And corruption and corruption checks are described with respect to characters only. So an ally cannot be the target of a corruption check.
Now I know that a card may be declared even if some actions that it causes do not have a valid target (such actions are just not declared).
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:01 pm
Is this a trick question? If the named card is in opponent's hand, the creature's card is discarded (all of its attacks are canceled).
CDavis7M wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:40 pm
If the company was eliminated, the strikes of the later attacks of Nameless thing could not be assigned/declared without a valid target.
Above is straightforward answer for:
What happens to the 2nd and 3rd attack of Nameless Thing if 1st attack will eliminate a company facing it?
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:06 pm

How about Pierced by Many Wounds?
Pierced by Many Wounds wrote:Playable on an attack with more strikes than defending character characters before strikes are assigned; does not count against the hazard limit. The first excess strike assigned to each character gives a -4 modification to his prowess instead of -1. Cannot be duplicated on a given attack. "...he was pierced by many black-feathered arrows..."-LotRIII
Is there any timing of applying -4 modification to his prowess instead of -1 or it is a replacing one modifier by other that does not take any time?
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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:12 pm

Why are you asking?

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Re: Press-gang AND Pallando the Soul-keeper

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:52 am

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:12 pm
Why are you asking?
I want to know whether there is a difference in treating:

"gives a -4 modification to his prowess instead of -1" (from Pierced by Many Wounds)
and
"Any effect that would move him to an untapped state makes him tapped instead" (from Endless Whispers).
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