The Balrog movement problems

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Theo
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The Balrog movement problems

Post by Theo »

Consider the combination of the following:
METB wrote:A Balrog player acts as a Ringwraith player. Any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog (e.g., if a card refers to a Ringwraith, it now applies to “a Ringwraith or The Balrog”).
However, instead of using the special rules listed on page 59 of the MELE rules (or wherever else these rules may appear), a Balrog player uses the following special rules:
...
MELE p.25 wrote:MOVING YOUR RINGWRAITH’S COMPANY
The company containing your Ringwraith may freely move from Darkhaven to Darkhaven and from a non-Darkhaven site to a Darkhaven. However, in order to move from a Darkhaven to a non-Darkhaven site, a Ringwraith must have a special resource card: a Black Rider card, a Fell Rider card, or a Heralded Lord card (i.e., the Ringwraith must be in Black Rider mode, in Fell Rider mode, or in Heralded Lord mode).
CRF Ringwraiths wrote: Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non- Darkhaven site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed. This means a Ringwraith may not move to Under-deeps sites that do not have a Darkhaven for a surface site.
METB wrote:A Balrog player may not include any of the following cards: Above the Abyss, Kill All But NOT the Halflings, The Lidless Eye, Bade to Rule , Morgul-blade, The Balrog (Ally), News of the Shire, The Black Council, Open to the Summons, Black Horse, Orders From Lugburz, Black Rider, Padding Feet, By the Ringwraith’s Word, The Ring Leaves its Mark, Creature of an Older World, Ringwraith cards, Ringwriath Unleashed Cards, Fell Rider, Sauron, The Fiery Blade, They Ride Together, Helm of Fear, Use Your Legs, Heralded Lord, While the Yellow Face Sleeps, Durin’s Bane, Balrog of Moria.
No rules similar to the MELE and CRF rules appear on page 59 of the MELE rules.

The implication: the company containing your Balrog cannot move to any non-Darkhaven site from any other site?

I have not found any rules (including cards) that overcome these limitations.

Balrog player dominance solved? :shock:
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Theo
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Theo »

With no other explanation, there is:
CoE #59 wrote:Balrog can move normally to various under-deeps sites and Moria (surface
site) without supporting cards right?

*** Correct.
Since The Under-gates alone is not "various" under-deeps sites, presumably any under-deeps site is allowed.

With no other explanation, it remains uncertain whether this is because companies with The Balrog are permitted some special exception to the MELE and CRF restrictions above for under-deeps sites alone, or whether they get full exceptions to the MELE and CRF restrictions even for surface sites.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Konrad Klar »

Theo wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:47 am
The implication: the company containing your Balrog cannot move to any non-Darkhaven site from any other site?
Yes. They screwed it up.
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CDavis7M
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by CDavis7M »

There are no problems. The MELE rules only prevent a Ringwraith from using Region Movement. They do not prevent a Ringwraith from using Starter Movement or Under-deeps movement. The CRF ruling on "Ringwraith" movement mentioned above predates the Balrog expansion. There is nothing to suggest that CRF rulings on Ringwraiths should apply to The Balrog. All of the rulings by term "Ringwraith" are particular to actual Ringwraiths, not to The Balrog.

The Balrog is not prevented from using Under-deeps movement by the rules or CRF. This should be obvious from The Balrog card itself.

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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:38 pm
There are no problems.
Only people who cannot read are seeing a problem.
They ask whether:
the company containing your Balrog cannot move to any non-Darkhaven site from any other site?
While answer is:
The Balrog is not prevented from using Under-deeps movement by the rules or CRF.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:38 pm
The CRF ruling on "Ringwraith" movement mentioned above predates the Balrog expansion
CRF Ringwraiths wrote:Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non- Darkhaven site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed. This means a Ringwraith may not move to Under-deeps sites that do not have a Darkhaven for a surface site.
does not add anything new. What it states is the implication from general rules.
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CDavis7M
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:46 pm
CRF Ringwraiths wrote:Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non- Darkhaven site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed. This means a Ringwraith may not move to Under-deeps sites that do not have a Darkhaven for a surface site.
does not add anything new. What it states is the implication from general rules.
I thought this CRF ruling was a bit odd because it DOES add something new. The statement "in order to move from a Darkhaven to a non-Darkhaven site, a Ringwraith must have a special resource card" is in the MELE Starter Rules and only refers to Starter Movement, not Region Movement or Under-deeps Movement, which are not available when playing according to the Starter Rules. Under the Standard Rules "A Ringwraith's company may not use region movement." Under-deeps movement is not available in the MELE set and is not described in the MELE rules. The Against the Shadow set provides under-deeps sites but the Against the Shadow rules on Under-deeps movement do not discuss Ringwraith characters.

The origin of the CRF entry:
Ichabod 11/5/97

Hey y'all
We realized that Ringwraith movement needs some clarification. Namely
a Ringwraith may not move from a non-Darkhaven to a non-Darkhaven
unless he is using Dwar Unleashed. This means that a Ringwraith may
not move to any Under-deeps sites except the ones that are adjacent
to Darkhavens.

Since this ruling contradicts previous rulings made, it will not
take effect in tournament play until 12/1/97.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod
ich...@cstone.net Me:CCG Official Netrep
So, the CRF on Ringwraiths is a change to the rules -- it adds something new. This change to the rules is not labeled as "errata" because it does not change or directly conflict with the text of the rules (per description of "clarification" vs "errata" in the Companion book). There are several non-errata clarifications in the CRF that are changes to the rules (e.g., company composition changes, required movement when splitting companies, etc.). These rulings are noted as changes in the ICE Digests and discussion, but not in the CRF itself.


Also, here is a madeup rule:
Image

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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:47 am
So, the CRF on Ringwraiths is a change to the rules -- it adds something new.
You are right, I was blind.
Before the CRF entry the Ringwraith's inability of moving from non-Darkhaven to non-Darkhaven was result of his inability of using a region movement (starter-movement does no offer non-Darkhaven to non-Darkhaven for minion player).
With other movement method Ringwraith was able to move from non-Darkhaven to non-Darkhaven).

Someone in ICE decided that Ringwraith should be gimp and capped him. By occasion he capped Balrog.
Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non- Darkhaven site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed. This means a Ringwraith may not move to Under-deeps sites that do not have a Darkhaven for a surface site.
Shame.
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CDavis7M
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by CDavis7M »

Except that the CRF clarifications on Ringwraiths don't apply to the Balrog. Only rules and card text per the MEBA rules.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Konrad Klar »

Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non- Darkhaven site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed.
It is either the implication of Ringwraith's inability of using region movement and limitation of starter movement (that does not allow for movement between non-Darkhavens). As such it is invalid for Ringwraith using other method of movement. And thus is invalid for Balrog.

Or it is an arbitrary rule that affects Ringwraith and thus Balrog.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Konrad Klar »

Against the Shadow: The Balrog
Resource: Ally

Unique. Manifestation of Balrog of Moria. Playable by a non-Ringwraith character at the Under-gates. Discard this ally if its company moves from a non-Under-deeps site to a non-Under-deeps site. During your organization phase, your opponent makes a roll (draws a #) and subtracts two. If the result is greater than the mind of this ally's controlling character, the character is eliminated.
Underline mine.

This may suggests that limiting under-deeps movement of Ringwraith character was not original idea.
Other explanation of "Playable by a non-Ringwraith character" is that it mainly* serves the purpose of restricting the Ringwraith character from playing the ally after successful influence attempt against it.

*) sometimes Ringwraith may appear at Under-gates after being imprisoned there and after discarding a hazard host.
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CDavis7M
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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:58 pm
Or it is an arbitrary rule that affects Ringwraith and thus Balrog.
Rules that affect Ringwraith don't necessarily affect Balrogs.
MEBA wrote:Any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog (e.g. , if a card refers to a Ringwraith, it now applies to "a Ringwraith or The Balrog").
The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played.
If the rules state that any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog, that does not mean that clarifications in the Collected Rulings File apply to the Balrog.

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Re: The Balrog movement problems

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 pm
If the rules state that any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog, that does not mean that clarifications in the Collected Rulings File apply to the Balrog.
Right.
If to remove completely the distinction in rules between Ringwraith and The Balrog, then "any card and rules text applying to a Ringwraith also applies to The Balrog" cannot be expressed.

As I said before, as a clarification the:
Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non- Darkhaven site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed. This means a Ringwraith may not move to Under-deeps sites that do not have a Darkhaven for a surface site.
is invalid.
Both for Ringwraith and The Balrog.

As a rule it affects them both.

Mentioning the Dwar Unleashed in text of the clarification/rule indicates a mistake.
Dwar Unleashed does not enable non-Darkhaven to non-Darkhaven movement. It enables a region movement. Enabling a region movement in turn gives possibilities that starter movement does not give.
In other words, if by some rule or effect, it would be forbidden for Ringwraith to move from non-Darkhaven to non-Darkhaven, then Dwar Unleashed would not make it possible.
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