Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

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Konrad Klar
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Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:04 pm

Dark Minions, Agents, Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site wrote:If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold, you may tap the agent and then attack
that company with any non-unique hazard creatures (regardless of what they are
keyed to) of the same creature type as the site’s automatic-attack.
If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the agent’s
home site, you may tap the agent and then attack that company with certain hazard
creatures (regardless of what they are keyed to) based upon the site type:
• You may play Men, Dwarves, Elves, Dúnedain, and Hobbits at Free-Holds.
• You may play Orcs, Nazgûl, Men, Dwarves, Elves, Dúnedain, and Hobbits at
Border-Holds.
• You may play Orcs, Nazgûl, and Trolls at Ruins & Lairs.
• You may play Orcs, Nazgûl, Undead, and Trolls at Shadow-Holds.
• You may play Orcs, Nazgûl, and Trolls at Dark-Holds.
In either case, if a creature is played in this manner, the agent is revealed (if it was not
already revealed).
1. If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same
Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold

What if type of site occupied by agent and type of site occupied/moved to by a company differ?
Is the rule only applicable if type of both copies of the site is the same?
Or is also applicable if both have type Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold, but do not necessarily have the same type?
Or only type of site occupied by agent matters?
Or only type of site site occupied/moved to by company matters?
Or it is sufficient that at least one copy has type of Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold?

2. What if type of an automatic-attacks at agent's copy of the site and company's copy of the site differ?
That one is taken into account?

3. If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the agent’s
home site
, type of which site is taken into account, company's or agent's copy (if they differ)?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:15 pm

Agent Actions: An agent may tap to make certain creatures playable at its current site.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:18 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:15 pm
Agent Actions: An agent may tap to make certain creatures playable at its current site.
I know. Funny part is that a company and agent use separate site cards for the same site.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:27 pm

Which is why the Agent uses its site for making creatures playable.

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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:02 pm

Funny part is still the same. A company and an agent use separate site cards for the same site.
And it does not prevent them from being both at the same Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold, nor from being both at the agent’s
home site
.

EDIT: "to be" > "from being"
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:59 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:02 pm
it does not prevent them from being both at the same Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold
Agents and characters cannot be "at" a site-type itself. The phrase "at the same Ruins & Lairs" only requires the agent's site to be a particular site-type and the opponent's company to be at that site. It does not require the site-types to be the same.

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Theo
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Theo » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:41 pm

CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:59 am
Agents and characters cannot be "at" a site-type itself.
Rather, should we not then conclude that agents and characters are never at the same site-type itself, preventing this mechanic from ever being used? :?

How to parse the phrase into something that isn't impossible would be ambiguous, warranting Konrad's questions. Some possibilities:
A) "If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same [site and the site is a] Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"
B) "If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same [site and each of their site cards are either] Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"
C) "If one of your agents and one of your opponent’s companies are both at the same [site and both of their site cards are the same of either] Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold"

Both for simplicity's sake and ceding uncertainty to permissiveness, (A) seems the most correct. For (A), the qualification that the site be a Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold does not depend on the site card at all. Thus the qualification could be affirmed by any version of the site, deferring to https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3633 .

Similarly, if the automatic attack types differ, any creature which matches the type of any version of the site would qualify.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:05 pm

Image

When the agent is revealed, its site card is placed with it. Super simple stuff.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:25 am

Theo wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:41 pm
For (A), the qualification that the site be a Ruins & Lairs, Shadow-hold, or Dark-hold does not depend on the site card at all. Thus the qualification could be affirmed by any version of the site, deferring to https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3633 .
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 145&t=3633 tries to determine a presence of a site (of given type) in game.
No one (hopefully) doubts that if FW company is at FW version of The White Towers and agent is at hero version of The White Towers, both The White Towers and [-me_rl-] The White Towers are considered to be in game.
FW company cannot play A Panoply of Wings nor War-Wolf because it is not at non-Haven site, non-Shadow-hold, non-Dark-hold in [-me_wi-] nor it is at [-me_rl-] with Wolves AA.
CDavis7M wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:05 pm
When the agent is revealed, its site card is placed with it. Super simple stuff.
Super simple question: to what the creatures are keyed?
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Theo » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:47 pm

Panoply of Wings and War-wolf refer to a tapped/untapped card state, so it seems more natural to interpret their references to "site" as "site card".

There is no way for an agent to be at the same site card as a company.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:41 pm

If you see tapped/untapped card state as relevant here, this only complicates communication (slightly).

But OK. What about situation when War-wolf is placed off to the side with Come at Need and a company moves to The White Towers and uses FW version of The White Towers site card?
I think that it is not affected by the Come at Need. It would be affected if it would move to The White Towers and would use hero or minion version of the site card.

My point remains the same. Type of particular site used by agent and type of the same particular site used by company may be different.

DM rules seem to ignore such possibility, despite the fact that it could occur even at the time when Dark Minions was released.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Theo » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:36 pm

I think the company in your example "would" (should) always be affected (unless all players have a FW-haven version out). But this is how I want the ARV proposal to resolve. Quotes are because the ARV proposal could instead make the War-wolf unplayable at companies moving to the FW versions if there is not also a Hero or Minion version in play.

---
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:41 pm
My point remains the same. Type of particular site used by agent and type of the same particular site used by company may be different.
If by site you mean site card. Otherwise I think a site is a named concept which is associated with multiple site cards with different types. Meaning, the type(s) of a particular site (by name) is the same at any given point in time regardless of the route (company/agent) through which the site is referenced, even if the site cards are different. A company at a FW-haven The White Towers card and an agent at a revealed Hero or Minion The White Towers card at the same time "should" mean that The White Towers named site qualifies as both a FW-haven and a Ruins and Lairs.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:17 am

Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:36 pm
If by site you mean site card.
By site I mean site. Two players may use two identical hero version of [-me_rl-] site cards. But on one of site cards Rebuild the Town is played.
One player uses [-me_rl-], other uses [-me_bh-]. Both use the same site and identical site cards.
Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:36 pm
But this is how I want the ARV proposal to resolve.
It is not what I want the ARV proposal to resolve.
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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by CDavis7M » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:47 pm

It's only been declared. It has fizzled and won't resolve because the limit has been reached.

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Re: Playing Creatures at an Agent’s Site

Post by Theo » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:39 am

Konrad Klar wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:17 am
Theo wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:36 pm
If by site you mean site card.
By site I mean site. Two players may use two identical hero version of [-me_rl-] site cards. But on one of site cards Rebuild the Town is played.
One player uses [-me_rl-], other uses [-me_bh-]. Both use the same site and identical site cards.
Right; so different site cards, same site. Rebuild the Town would not make a site a different site; e.g. Weathertop with Guarded Haven would still prevent the play of Marshalling Points items at opponent's Weathertop with Rebuild the Town.
It is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world.
One [online community] with hammer and chisel might mar more than they make... Cautious skill!
Double Standards.

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