Theo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am
An attempt to summarize CDavis7M bottom lines:
* Ignore "dice-roll" in Annotation 19.
Why:
1) No card exists that modifies a target body check dice-roll.
2) "The METW/MELE Companion shows the non-targeting effects operate by passive conditions."
3) Effects triggered by passive conditions during the resolution of a chain of effects cannot themselves resolve before the end of that chain of effects.
4) There being no cards that exist that could be played during the body-check chain of effects, conclude that Annotation 19 as literally written must be in error.
5) Furthermore, the intent must have been for "dice-roll" to be ignored. For that matter, ignore "nested" while we're at it.
No... This is not WHY you ignore "dice roll" in Annotation 19. But these are probably some of the reasons WHY the CRF Ruling on "Body Checks" says that you can modify the body in addition to the body check dice roll.
Body Check - "Affecting the body check" includes modifying the die roll or the body of the character making the check.
I'm not making this up.
Consider this -- if eliminating the character is not a separate action from the failed body check (i.e., the eliminating action is declared but contingent on the dice roll) then why would you be able to modify the dice roll but not the body?
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Theo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am
2) Short-events cannot use passive conditions as you have defined them ("METW/MELE Companion: A passive condition causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play."), as these cards are never in play.
Short events CAN create effects that are triggered by passive conditions. The Companion statement that "
A passive condition causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play" is a description, it is not all inclusive. It does not state "
a passive condition may only cause an action to happen as stated on a card already in play and by the way, card effects that are in play don't count." The effect of a short event may still be in play even if the short event is not in play.
Theo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am
CoE #124 finally ruled "Even though the corruption checks from Greed are not triggered by a passive condition, they are treated that way for the purposes of timing." This is a rather inconsequential distinction from your statement, though
...What... OK, let's read the ruling. Yup, everyone including the CoE Netrep makes the same mistake -- they assume that short events can never use the timing rules for passive conditions.
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... =91&t=1881
https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... f=12&t=541
How else would the timing work? Consider The Evenstar short-event "
the prowess of each Elf is modified by +1 (until the end of turn)" and Star of High Hope long-event "
The prowess of each Elf and Dúnadan is modified by +1." Both of these effects have no specific target at declaration. The +"1 prowess" cannot be implemented until after these non-targeting effects are in play. The rules on passive conditions cover the timing of this situation.
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Theo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am
3) The actual rule is that all effects in a chain are resolved from last to first. This has historically been interpreted to mean that new effects cannot be
added to a chain that has begun to resolve. This does not prevent non-action effects triggered by passive conditions from resolving outside of chains of effect (passive condition rules only state that
actions are declared in the next chain of effects... although the passive condition wordings are "action" biased). We know that not everything declared resolves within a chain of effects (e.g. active conditions, choosings made by players), and not every persistent effect works through passive conditions (e.g. corruption points, item modifiers, and other directed rule modifications).
The tapping/discarding/etc actions satisfying Active Conditions are NOT declared in a chain of effects. Also, I believe that choices by the player are inherently declared -- this is the way to determine that a target is not "required" per Annotation 8, and thus not an active condition to be determined at declaration. Meaning, if the player is given a choice ("search for a card", etc) then the target cannot be determined until resolution.
Not every persistent effect works through passive conditions. But every effect without a specific target that affects a category of targets IS governed by the rules on passive conditions.
An effect that gives a modifier to "all" dice rolls of a particular type without targeting a specific dice roll uses the timing for passive conditions. An effect may be triggered in a resolving chain of effect (in fact this is how it normally happens), but the effect triggered by the passive condition may not declare and resolve its effect during resolution of another chain of effects.
The difference with Miruvor is that "all characters in bearer's company" has
specific targets. All of the characters in the company are known and they are the target of the +2 to body. This resolves in the chain of effects and does not use passive condition timing. Spawn of Ungoliant uses passive condition timing and so it must have already been in play.
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Theo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am
4) This is personally my strongest disagreement. The CRF entries seem to me to be reinforcing the generic rules of the time for the very purpose of preventing players from playing
other cards:
The rules on dice-roll timing simply means that dice-roll modifiers can target non-resolved cards. Besides dice-roll modifiers and cancelers you cannot target non-resolved effects.
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Theo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:44 am
Your interpretation of the rules would allow Like The Crash of Battering Rams to be interpreted (immediately-resolved short event) to be playable after the strike roll is determined. As far as I know, such an interpretation has never been considered (as it needn't be if Annotation 19 stands as written).
Did you not even read the Strike Sequence? Hazards affecting the strike, such as Like the Crash of Battering Rams, are played before the resources affecting the strike and they are all played before the strike dice roll. There is no way for Like The Crash of Battering Rams to be played after the strike dice roll. I never suggested that it could.
Also, read Annotation 19 again... LtCoBR's body-modifying effect is a "special action" of a strike.