Legendary Stair

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Shapeshifter
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Legendary Stair

Post by Shapeshifter »

Legendary Stair wrote:Resource: Short-event
During the organization phase, reveal the new site of a company planning to move whose site of origin is untapped. This card is playable if the company's new site is an Under-deeps site. At the end of the turn, the company may replace its new site with its site of origin card.
I have difficulties with this card when a company has multiple m/h phases in one turn (e.g. Gangways over the Fire, World Gnawed by the Nameless).

Problem 1: Which site card has to be revealed during the organization phase?
a) the 1st under-deeps site the company moves to from its surface site
b) the last site the company is planning to reach
c) all sites the company is planning to reach

Problem 2: Which site is considered the company's site of origin for the purpose of returning there at the end of the turn?
a) the site where the company began its turn (compare to the wording on Ancient Stair, see below)
b) the last site from which the company moved away during it's last m/h phase
MELE ruklesbook wrote:A company commits to moving by playing a new site card (face down) during its organization phase. A company does not have to move during a given turn (i.e., it does not play a new site card).
At the beginning of its movement/hazard phase, a moving company’s current site card becomes its site of origin – the company is considered to be en route to its new site card (i.e., the company is moving).
At the end of a moving company’s movement/hazard phase (before players return to their hand sizes), its site of origin is removed (discard if tapped; otherwise, return it to your location deck) and the new site card becomes the company’s current site card.
MELE ruklesbook, glossary wrote:Site of Origin: The site where a moving company began its turn. The company is no longer at its site of origin when it reveals a new site at the beginning of its movement/hazard phase.
Ancient Stair wrote:Resource: Short-event
Playable only at the end of the organization phase on a company that starts its turn at an untapped adjacent site of an Under-deeps site. Opponent may draw up to twice the normal number of cards for this company during the movement/hazard phase. If company moved to an Under-deeps site, at the end of the turn the company may replace its site card with the site card at which it began the turn.
[edit 11/02/2020: corrected some grammar mistakes]
Last edited by Shapeshifter on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Konrad Klar
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by Konrad Klar »

1.
The 1st under-deeps site the company moves to from it's current site (not necessarily surface site).
2.
The last site from which the company moved away during it's last M/H phase.

A consistency requires to give this answer.
Otherwise a company that had multiple M/H phases, returned to its site of origin after completion its M/H phase, would choose among multiple past sites of origin.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by CDavis7M »

Problem 1: Which site card has to be revealed during the organization phase?
a) the 1st under-deeps site the company moves to from it's surface site?
Reason: there is only one site card to reveal during the organization phase.

Problem 2: Which site is considered the company's site of origin for the purpose of returning there at the end of the turn?
a) the site where the company began it's turn?
Reason: ICE ruled this way.
CRF - Turn Sequence Rulings - Organization Phase - Choosing a New Site wrote:Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.
This ruling does not apply to Legendary Stair as its effect does NOT depend on the new site. Only the playability conditions depend on the new site. Therefore, the effect of Legendary Stair is applied once during the organization phase (not for each movement hazard phase). Therefore, the "new site card" and the "site of origin" are defined to be those present in the organization phase (of course there is no "new site card" nor is there a "site of origin card" during the end of turn). However, there is a complication preventing the company from moving using Legendary Stair at the EoT when multiple M/H phases are taken (e.g., two out-of-play sites replace each other, instead of replacing the company's current site). However, there is an ICE ruling on point. I think ICE's ruling is reasonable as presumably "replace its new site card" in Legendary Stair is intended to be "replace its [current] site card."
ICE Netrep wrote:Question: If a player plays *Legendary Stair* and uses *World Gnawed by the Nameless* to move a company to several different under-deeps sites during the M/H phases, which site may the company return to at the end of the turn?

Answer: The site where you started the turn.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
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------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------

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Theo
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by Theo »

Good find Netrep Digest 58. "replace its new site card" should be added to errata.
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:42 pm
This ruling does not apply to Legendary Stair as its effect does NOT depend on the new site.
Right.
Answer: The site where you started the turn.
You (player) have not started turn at site. Company affected by Legendary Stair did not necessarily started its turn at the site at which it was at the end of organization phase.
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Shapeshifter
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by Shapeshifter »

Thank you all for your answers.
CDavis7M wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:42 pm
Problem 2: Which site is considered the company's site of origin for the purpose of returning there at the end of the turn?
a) the site where the company began it's turn?
Reason: ICE ruled this way.
ICE Netrep wrote:Question: If a player plays *Legendary Stair* and uses *World Gnawed by the Nameless* to move a company to several different under-deeps sites during the M/H phases, which site may the company return to at the end of the turn?

Answer: The site where you started the turn.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email
Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep
http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod/ Alternate Official Me:CCG Website
------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------
This is how I thought this card would work, but maybe I had the wording on Ancient Stair in mind then. I wonder, however, why this ruling didn't make it into the CRF. Furthermore, why did they change the wording on Legendary Stair to be more unclear (or precise?) compared to Ancient Stair?
Ancient Stair [excerpt] wrote:If company moved to an Under-deeps site, at the end of the turn the company may replace its site card with the site card at which it began the turn.
(Bold by me.)

Without the ruling in Ichabod's digest 58 - if it may be called 'official' - Konrad's reading of the card would seem right to me.

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CDavis7M
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by CDavis7M »

Shapeshifter wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:49 pm
I wonder, however, why this ruling didn't make it into the CRF.
I don't wonder because I have read the complaints. They go on and on but there are some easy to find examples:
Ichabod - 9/9/97

mcol...@earthlink.net (Matthew M. Colville) wrote:
> Is it my imagination, or is there a *lot* of errata for Middle Earth?

Perhaps. The question is realy, is there too much errata? I've never
had a real problem with it in play, so I don't think so.


> Is there any plan to do anything about this?
What do you mean? We can't really unerrata all the cards. We are
trying to limit the errata to cards, to only fix those that have
a problem with game mechanics. For instance, Cave-drake is still
a Dragon hazard, even though thematically it should be a Drake
hazard
.
What do you mean you don't like our 50 page document? We excluded one line of errata not making a Drake a Drake?
J.Amenta - 9/10/97
mcol...@earthlink.net (Matthew M. Colville) wrote:
> Is it my imagination, or is there a *lot* of errata for Middle Earth?
> Is there any plan to do anything about this?
The errata and rules go on forever. A small book can be written on the subject.
Yes, I have this small book printed.

--------

The rationale for "reducing errata" ?
> I mean release an Unlimited 2 with the new cards as they should be.
Ichabod - Oh, yeah. Whenever we do reprint the cards, they will contain the
new errata to them. The question is when will we reprint the cards.
ICE still has the first printing of Unlimited in their warehouse
Yes, exactly. The real reason for "less" errata. Not to mention the hoards of The Dragons and White Hand booster boxes sitting around causing the distributors to complain.

More discussion on the errata rationale:
ICE is aware that there are simulation problems in the game. However,
to fix all of the small simulation problems in the game would require
far more errata and rulings than we are willing to issue. Despite
what many people continue to say, we ARE trying to keep the rulings
and errata to a minimum. We currently try to limit our rulings and
errata to problems which affect mechanical issues in game play.

Bottom line: The CRF is too long. Many rulings never made it into the CRF. Most were deemed obvious and were said to be so by the Netrep (e.g., ruling that River cannot be revealed on-guard, though people here would argued that it only "potentially" causes a company to do nothing). And many correct (and well known) rulings from the published/paper rulings were removed from the electronic CRF (e.g., rulings on Tom Bombadil and Twilight that have been re-hashed since everyone forgot the ICE rulings in 2002 or '03 it seems). Plus, the electronic rulings were consolidated and reformatted several times to try to keep the space to a minimum.

--------------------
Shapeshifter wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:49 pm
Furthermore, why did they change the wording on Legendary Stair to be more unclear (or precise?) compared to Ancient Stair?
Ancient Stair [excerpt] wrote:If company moved to an Under-deeps site, at the end of the turn the company may replace its site card with the site card at which it began the turn.
(Bold by me.)

Without the ruling in Ichabod's digest 58 - if it may be called 'official' - Konrad's reading of the card would seem right to me.
Ancient Stair can be played even if you don't move to an under-deeps site (move from surface site using region movement - only allowing opponent to draw more cards). Potentially there is no effect if the opponent's hand is full. But the card is meant to be played on a company using under-deeps movement, not tossed away. So the whole card was rewritten. As Konrad says, maybe because the site at the beginning of the turn was different (e.g., company splits at a tapped haven and the company at the untapped haven uses Legendary Stairs to returns to the untapped haven). Which was possible not contemplated in the netrep ruling.


--------------
Another comment by the Net Rep at the end of his response to 22 questions asked by some guy in May 1997:
Except where otherwise stated, these are correct rulings. Some of them I am not sure why they are not in the CRF, but it has not always been my decision what goes in. Most of them are not in the CRF because they should be clear from reading the cards and the rules. I try to avoid including such rulings in the CRF.

------ "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" ------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod
ich...@cstone.net Me:CCG Official Netrep
Vegetarians Taste Better Praise "Bob"
--Self Proclaimed Most Mediocre Magic Player in the World--
Last edited by CDavis7M on Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Theo
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by Theo »

A takeaway of this for me, though, is that they fully concede that the lack of extensive written errata means that they expect people to play as the rules stand rather than by extrapolation, e.g., as in the Cave-drake example.
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Konrad Klar
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Re: Legendary Stair

Post by Konrad Klar »

CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:55 pm
As Konrad says, maybe because the site at the beginning of the turn was different (e.g., company splits at a tapped haven and the company at the untapped haven uses Legendary Stairs to returns to the untapped haven). Which was possible not contemplated in the netrep ruling.
Or due to Traitor/The Hunt/The Greater Hunt + Farmer Maggot combo.
Or because a company affected by Legendary Stair is joint of multiple companies, each with different (last) site of origin.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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