FW - Token of Goodwill with minion items

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melkor_morgoth75
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FW - Token of Goodwill with minion items

Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:54 am

Hi all,

I know that non-event resources can target different alignment cards and not viceversa but ...

can i discard a minion item after the use of ToG to satisfy it? Or MUST i discard a hero item?

mm75
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:23 am

I'd say yes.
CRF, Rulings by Term, MELE vs. METW wrote:Hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources. Note that a Fallen-wizard may play
special ring items regardless of the alignment of the gold ring item tested.
Discarding of item is required by one of action and is condition for effect of the card. However item is not condition for Token of Goodwill (Token of Goodwill may be played even if company does not bear item, item is not specified at declaration so is not target).
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Post by melkor_morgoth75 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:39 pm

I'm not fully convinced.

Token of Goodwill DOESN'T require "discarding" to be played (so there is NO minion resources to be targeted), so i can play it ... then i need to discard an item as an effect, i don't see why i can't discard whatever item to fullfit that effect ...

It would be great to have an "official" (ok, there is nothing official, but a detailed explanation) before next championship here ... ehehehehe, i'd need to know it for my deck :wink:

Many thanks,

mm75
"In front of such powers and strengths, it seems a very little thing the story of some common humans, but really some of them were able to change and fight this world's fate".
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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:58 pm

melkor_morgoth75 wrote: i don't see why i can't discard whatever item to fullfit that effect ...
Misunderstanding. I'm trying to say that in my opinion minion item may be discarded as result of action from Token of Goodwill and condition for its further effects.
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:33 pm

If discarding the item is an action caused by Token of Goodwill, then I'm afraid Token targets the item in question, since it specifies by number (a) and type (minor/major/greater, depending on the attack being faced), and also because the item is the entity through which the action plays out.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:14 pm

He, he...
Another off-topic conflict in fundamental questions. What is target and what is not, and whether
Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type.
is sufficient to say that in each case where entity is specified by number and type, such entity is target?
Unique. Palantír. Playable at Barad-dûr. When a character taps to play Ithil-stone, make a roll (draw a #). If this result plus the number of scouts in his company is greater than 9, Ithil-stone is successfully played. Otherwise, the bearer is eliminated and Ithil-stone is placed in your out of play pile. Bearer makes a corruption check at the end of each of his untap phases. Bane of the Ithil-stone is discarded and cannot be played. If The Lidless Eye is in play, its player's hand size decreases by two.
Can you say that Bane of the Ithil-stone is target of The Ithil-stone (and why not :) )?
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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:28 pm

And whether
"an item from his company (as listed below)"
is specification by type.
Is it not similar to "any (item, character, other entity)"?
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Bandobras Took
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Post by Bandobras Took » Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:24 pm

It then does go on to specify type -- minor, major, greater. :)

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Post by jaded » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:52 am

The item is not targeted by ToG, but is "target" and "condition for" the same thing? Furthermore - the rule does not say "condition for playing minion/hero resources".

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Post by Bandobras Took » Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:24 pm

jaded wrote:The item is not targeted by ToG, but is "target" and "condition for" the same thing? Furthermore - the rule does not say "condition for playing minion/hero resources".
Token of Goodwill causes an item to be discarded and specifies the item by number and type. This fulfils the definition of a target, which is:
Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action.
A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type.

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Post by Konrad Klar » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:20 pm

Then player must specify minor/major/greater item in its company at declaration and if this specified item is not in company at resolution, ToG cannot resolve (no other item may be discarded).

Ok. I'm convinced.
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Post by jaded » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:58 pm

Lol Can you play an effect?

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Konrad Klar
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Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:01 pm

No.

EDIT:

If effect means result of action, of course.
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Re:

Post by Konrad Klar » Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:34 am

Bandobras Took wrote:
jaded wrote:The item is not targeted by ToG, but is "target" and "condition for" the same thing? Furthermore - the rule does not say "condition for playing minion/hero resources".
Token of Goodwill causes an item to be discarded and specifies the item by number and type. This fulfils the definition of a target, which is:
Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action.
A target is an entity that an action is played out through. Enitities are only targets of an action if the action specifies those entities by number and type.
CRF, Rulings by Term, Active Conditions wrote:Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active
condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved.
An action may not be declared if its target is not in play. However, dice-rolling actions
may always be targeted by other actions declared later in the same chain of effects.
Whether discarding of item and dice-roll will occur depends on result of corruption check.
At declaration it is not known whether it will happen or not.

That leads to question:
Are discarding of item and dice-roll considerd declared?

Object on which not declared action operates is not target.
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Re: FW - Token of Goodwill with minion items

Post by Frodo » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:45 am

Hey guys! Does this mean that you have all concluded:

1) An FW company CANNOT discard a minion item to satisfy Token of Goodwill.
2) You CAN play Token of Goodwill and not discard an item (but then Token will not have any chance of canceling an attack).

Let me know if this is what you believe. Thanks!
--joe bisz

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