Introducing characters / Untapping of Havens

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Khamul the Easterling
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I have a (Hero) company at a tapped Haven. Which are the options to untap the Haven site card? I see the following:

- If the Wizard is not in play, a new character, forming a second company consisting of himself alone, may be introduced in the organisation phase receiving a new untapped copy of the site card. However, if this character is to remain at the site during the MH-phase as well as the first company, both companies have to be united before the MP-phase (as separate companies at a same site may not both stay at their sites with individual MP-phases). In the process of uniting the companies in the organisation phase, one of the existing copies of the Haven must be discarded and the player may freely chose to discard either the tapped or the untapped copy.

- If the Wizard is in play, a new character may only be brought into play at the site of the Wizard (or under direct influence of another character). I think that the new character has to be played within the same company of either the Wizard or the character providing sufficient direct influence. Thus, the newly introduced character may not receive his own new site card in the moment of being introduced. Only in case the enlarged company decides to split to move to different sites (or stay at the Haven with one company and move to a non-Haven site with the other company) a new and untapped copy of the Haven may be introduced to have both companies equipped with a site card of origin.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
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Konrad Klar
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CRF, Turn Sequence, Movement/Hazard Phase, General wrote:Companies at the same non-Haven/non-Darkhaven site must join at the end of all
movement/hazard phases, before the site phase starts. Companies at the same Haven/
Darkhaven site may join at this time.
Separate companies may stay at the same Haven/Darkhaven even outside of organization phase.

If you have Wizard/Ringwraith in play, a character that you are bringing in play under GI does not must be in the same company as Wizard/Ringwraith.
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Khamul the Easterling
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OK, so not necessarily within the same company, but at the same site, anyway. I understand from
MELE Rules, p. 33 wrote:If your Ringwraith is in play, your Ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence tocontrol the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played.
"at the site" means "at the same copy of the site card". Correct?
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CDavis7M
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You cannot get a company at a tapped haven an untapped Haven in just 1 turn unless you split and move part of the company. This is because all company composition changes, including playing characters, happens at the same time without interruption. An untapped Haven could be done over 2 turns, playing a character one turn and merging the 2nd turn.

A character may either join the company at the tapped haven, become their own company at an untapped Haven, or the company can split, creating a new company at an untapped Haven while the moving company uses the tapped haven.
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CDavis7M
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Khamul the Easterling wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 3:28 pm OK, so not necessarily within the same company, but at the same site, anyway. I understand from
MELE Rules, p. 33 wrote:If your Ringwraith is in play, your Ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence tocontrol the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played.
"at the site" means "at the same copy of the site card". Correct?
Doesn't need to be the same exact site card. But it actually doesn't matter because the character can't be played at an untapped Haven and then join a company at a tapped haven. They are either played at the tapped haven so they join the company at the tapped haven OR someone splits from that company staying at an untapped Haven OR they are played a new site and remain a separate company at the untapped site.

You can't "untap" a company's tapped Haven merely by playing a character.
CRF wrote:Company composition changes that you choose to make, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken.
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Theo
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I do not read the restriction you are implying. When you play a character it is placed at a site. It can be placed at a new, untapped site; it is part of the activity of playing the character, necessary to enforce "If the appropriate site is not available, you may not play the character."-MELE. During the same company compositional period, companies can merge, resplit, etc. (they just can't re-merge).
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CDavis7M
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I'm not implying it. ICE has said it. It's easier to find ICE's statements on Company Composition than their statements on The Evenstar, and you found those.

There is no way to both come into your own company at a site and also join a company. Each character can only make 1 Company Composition change each Organization phase.
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Theo
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Shall we look for references?

The legality of joining the same turn as playing is established by the following:
CoE #67 wrote: the NetRep team has come to some conclusions about the various "haven untapping" tricks. Namely:

*** The most recent ruling on the subject was incorrect (in Digest 54).
*** You can play a character at a haven, use a second haven card and leave the two companies distinct. Neither needs to move as it's not a split. Also, you could then join the two companies and keep whichever haven card you like (presumably the untapped version will be chosen).
Now note the following digest number:
CoE #54 wrote:He used a combo that tapped Rivendell during his organization phase, afterwards he played Arwen at Rivendell as a second company and moved the characters from company 1 to Arwen's company.

*** This is illegal. If you play a second copy of a haven during the organization phase with a new character, the new character is considered a different company, and cannot join the first. Secondly, one of the two companies must move this turn.
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CDavis7M
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Look for an ICE reference since they are the ones that wrote the rule.

Thanks for finding another CoE Rule Change though.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon May 04, 2020 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Theo
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Maybe you didn't see the address you typed in your browser. No one forced you to come here.
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CDavis7M
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No one is forcing you to play ICE's game by the rules of the game.

The CoE netrep is wrong. They are wrong about a lots of rules. There is no indication that they intended to change the rules or that they would not accept the ICE interpretations and rulings if they actually knew it.
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CDavis7M
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ICE wrote: Company composition can change at most once during the organization phase. You cannot play a character with a company, resolve some effect, and then split that character off into another company. Also you cannot split a company in two, resolve an effect with one or both, and then rejoin them.
----------
Q: Do Havens untap?

A: No. New versions of the Haven (from splitting or moving companies) come
into play untapped, but tapped Havens in play will not untap.
----------
Q: Why was it necessary to change the rules to allow the play of a character even if you don't have the GI or DI to control it?

A: Say you want to join two companies and then transfer an influence increasing item between two characters. Since we introduced the rule that all company composition changes have to happen at the same time, you could not do this and then play the character. So we made an exception to allow you to play the character before you had the influence to control him, and then later get more influence.
There is also the case, which has already been mentioned, of playing a character and using his direct influence to free up general influence to control him with.
----------
Q: "Company composition changes, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken." I don't know how to look at this. Does it mean that you can only organize once per organization phase? Or does it mean that once you start an "organization" process, you can't do anything else until that process is finished (but no limit on the number of organizations)?

A: It means both. You only organize once during the phase, and while you are organizing you may not play other effects. You can do multiple actions while organizing: move a character from DI to GI, play a character, and then split companies. But you could not do anything but an organization action during that time.
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Q: If Gandalf is at a tapped haven and brings in a character during the organization phase, then Gandalf and his cronies leave the tapped haven, is the new character at the tapped haven, or a new site of his/her own. BTW, the new character is presumed to have never joined Gandalf's party.
A: If Gandalf brings him in under general influence, he can be at an untapped site.
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Q: When a Haven is tapped, can you split a company at that haven and play an untapped Haven card with the new company? And, if so, can you then recombine the company with the untapped Haven card, thus resulting in untapping the Haven ?
A: Yes and no. You can split the companies, but that assumes that the two companies are moving to different sites, so you could not recombine them to get the untapped Haven.
----------
Q: If I have a company at a tapped Haven, and I send my other company to the same Haven, do they arrive at an untapped or tapped Haven (supposing I do not merge the two companies into one immediately; I'm using a separate site-card for the second company)?
A: If you do not merge the companies, the moving company arrives at an untapped Haven.

Q: Supposing they arrive at an untapped Haven, can I then merge my two companies in my next org. phase and use the Untapped site card for it, or do I have to use the tapped one?
A: You can use the untapped site card if you wish.
----------
Q: If I have two characters at a haven, can I split them during my organization phase into two different companies, and declare that they are not moving, and then during my site phase declare that character 2 does not wish to rejoin with character 1, and thus give him his own haven site card?
A: In the CRF - Turn Sequence Rulings - Organizing Companies - "If a company splits, all but one of the split companies must attempt to move to a different site this turn. The company may not rejoin in the same phase." So, the answer is no.

Q: If yes, and the original haven was tapped, would this new version be untapped?
A: See above.

Q: If no, and the only way for a duplicate haven site card to appear is from a character MOVING to the haven, then would this duplicate haven be untapped if original haven was tapped?
A: Yes (if I understand your question). Ioreth is at a tapped Lorien. Beorn and company move to Lorien using a new site card. Beorn's version of Lorien is not tapped.

Q: If I have one character each at duplicate versions of the same haven, is there any way at all to somehow "walk" or "reorganize" my companys/characters so that character 1 can join character 2, without actually leaving the haven? (this becomes important if one character's haven is tapped and the other's is untapped).
A: Sure you can. In the above example, if Ioreth joins Beorn's company at the end of the movement/hazard phase, her tapped Lorien is discarded and she is now at Beorn's untapped haven.
----------
Q: If my Wizard/RW is at a haven, can I bring a character into play, at the haven, but not into the wizard/RW's company? (i.e. to get an untapped haven with that character)? Or does the character have to come into play into the same company as the wizard/RW, move, and then come back to get the untapped haven? I forget.
A: p.58 MELE - "If your Ringwraith is in play, your ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence to control the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played." p.20 MELE - "When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site _or_ he may become a new
company (consisting of one character)."
Last edited by CDavis7M on Mon May 04, 2020 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CDavis7M
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As for the CoE, I was wondering why they first had the right idea then later got it wrong:
CoE wrote:Also, the Many Turns and Doublings during the organization phase issue and the haven untapping issue are still under consideration. I apologize to anybody who feels that their comments on the list were overlooked.

Note that my intention with the haven untapping issue was simply to uphold currently standing rulings. The correctness of those rulings is now being examined.
CoE wrote:Secondly, the NetRep team has come to some conclusions about the various "haven untapping" tricks. Namely:
*** The most recent ruling on the subject was incorrect (in Digest 54).

*** You can play a character at a haven, use a second haven card and leave the two companies distinct. Neither needs to move as it's not a split. Also, you could then join the two companies and keep whichever haven card you like (presumably the untapped version will be chosen).
Playing a character is a "company composition change." Merging characters into a company is a "company composition change." Therefore, a character cannot both be (i) played at their own untapped haven and (ii) merge with another company at the untapped haven because this would be 2 company composition changes. Only 1 change is allowed per organization phase.

The CoE Ruling is wrong. I have no idea what could possibly be misinterpreted from:
CRF wrote:Company composition changes that you choose to make, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken.
Maybe the CoE thought this was only a restriction on other actions and not a restriction on doing more than 1 company composition change? Still, how can a character come into play at a new site and then merge "at the same time."

Regardless, the ICE Netrep clearly explains what was meant:
ICE wrote:Company composition can change at most once during the organization phase.
----------
Q: "Company composition changes, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken." I don't know how to look at this. Does it mean that you can only organize once per organization phase? Or does it mean that once you start an "organization" process, you can't do anything else until that process is finished (but no limit on the number of organizations)?

A: It means both. You only organize once during the phase, and while you are organizing you may not play other effects. You can do multiple actions while organizing: move a character from DI to GI, play a character, and then split companies. But you could not do anything but an organization action during that time.
The CoE ruling is from 2004. The CoE already "forgot" about the ICE rulings in 2001. ICE rulings are explanations are never referenced by the CoE. No doubt the CoE ruling was a result of people ignorant of the ICE rule changes having strong opinions based on their misinterpretations.
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Theo
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Discussion following your first quote:
ICE Clarifications & Reversals, 5/16/97 wrote: >In article <ichabod-1605...@dialin52.cstone.net>,
>Ichabod <ich...@cstone.net> wrote:
>>2) Company composition can change at most once during the organization
>>phase. You cannot play a character with a company, resolve some effect,
>>and then split that character off into another company. Also you cannot
>>split a company in two, resolve an effect with one or both, and then
>>rejoin them.
>>
>This means I can't bring Elrohir in at Rivendell and then have him and a couple
>guys go to Moria to grab an item while Elrond and a friend go and get a
>faction, correct? This doesn't tick with me.

That is not the intention of the ruling, although you are right in that
the wording makes it seem that way. You may bring in a character and
split a company, so long as no effects are played between the two
actions.
Indeed, when we look at the later rulings, the wording you quoted morphed into:
CRF wrote:Company composition changes that you choose to make, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken.
---
CDavis7M wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:12 am Still, how can a character come into play at a new site and then merge "at the same time."
You seem to be ignoring:
ICE Rules Digest 58 wrote:You can do multiple actions while organizing: move a character from DI to GI, play a character, and then split companies. But you could not do anything but an organization action during that time.
Here "time" is of a contiguous duration, not a single moment as you seem to think. Good luck moving cards instantaneously.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:34 am
CDavis7M wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:12 am Still, how can a character come into play at a new site and then merge "at the same time."
You seem to be ignoring:
ICE Rules Digest 58 wrote:You can do multiple actions while organizing: move a character from DI to GI, play a character, and then split companies. But you could not do anything but an organization action during that time.
Here "time" is of a contiguous duration, not a single moment as you seem to think. Good luck moving cards instantaneously.
You are ignoring:
ICE wrote:Company composition can change at most once during the organization phase.
----------
Q: "Company composition changes, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken." I don't know how to look at this. Does it mean that you can only organize once per organization phase? Or does it mean that once you start an "organization" process, you can't do anything else until that process is finished (but no limit on the number of organizations)?

A: It means both. You only organize once during the phase, and while you are organizing you may not play other effects. You can do multiple actions while organizing: move a character from DI to GI, play a character, and then split companies. But you could not do anything but an organization action during that time.
You can bring in a character and then split because it is the same as splitting and bringing the character into play with one of the split companies, but one of the splitting companies needs to move. The character brought into play has only effectively made 1 company composition change.

It is not possible to bring a character in to his own company and then merge with another company because that character would have had to have been played with the other company in the first place. The CoE untapping trick doesn't work.
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