Agent questions

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Post Reply
Bob654
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:02 pm

One specific question about Agent usage:
From URD 4.2, credited to the CRF:
Only Elven agents can move to a site that is a Wizardhaven
When exactly is a site considered a Wizardhaven. For a DIY Wizardhaven with Hidden Haven I would assume only while that card is on the table. But for Isengard, The White Towers and Rhosgobel:
Are they always Wizardhavens?
Are they only considered Wizardhavens if your opponent is declared as a Fallen-Wizard?
What about if you are declared a a Fallen-Wizard but your opponent is not?
Or the most liberal interpretation, are they only considered Wizardhavens as long as a Wizardhaven version of the site card is a company's current/new site card?


And then an open-ended Agent question, that may lead to some opinions and house rules:
From the section on cards without effect on minion players -
All Events that require an agent
This seems to make playing an Agent focused strategy against a minion player fairly untenable, especially if it's an influencing rather than combat focused agent strategy. Any thoughts on why they made this limitation? Obviously it's pretty tenuous thematically, but I could make the leap in logic that against a minion player the hazards represent threats by the forces of good and that your agents are there to influence elements to the side of the free peoples rather than Sauron.

So the rule is pretty clear, but I was looking for some advice for what to be aware of if I wanted to house rule ignore that and play agents without restrictions against minion players. In the Lidless Eye rulebook, the restriction on agent cards falls under the section for "overly powerful or mechanically doesn't work" rather than the optional list of "thematically doesn't make sense" so I didn't know if there was an abuse there against a minion player that I have yet to discover.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Bob654 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:15 pm When exactly is a site considered a Wizardhaven. For a DIY Wizardhaven with Hidden Haven I would assume only while that card is on the table. But for Isengard, The White Towers and Rhosgobel:
Are they always Wizardhavens?
Are they only considered Wizardhavens if your opponent is declared as a Fallen-Wizard?
What about if you are declared a a Fallen-Wizard but your opponent is not?
Or the most liberal interpretation, are they only considered Wizardhavens as long as a Wizardhaven version of the site card is a company's current/new site card?
The sites in play matter. The rule invalidates an agent's movement if they used a site card that their opponent has in play as a Wizardhaven. Obviously, an agent cannot have a Wizardhaven site placed in its own stack of site cards for movement, they use the normal version of the site. If a FW player moves to the Ruins and Lairs version of The White Towers/Isengard, the agent's movement is not invalidated because the site is not a Wizardhaven.

If your opponent has played a Wizardhaven to invalidate your agent's movement, your agent would need to move backwards, removing sites from the top of the stack to get rid of that site. You could also just remove all of the sites so the agent "returns to their homesite."
ICE Netrep wrote:Question: What happens when the agent is revealed and it has moved through a site, which have become haven (Hidden Haven, Mischief in a Mean Way)?

Answer: It would be discarded.
----------
Bob654 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:15 pm And then an open-ended Agent question, that may lead to some opinions and house rules:
From the section on cards without effect on minion players -
All Events that require an agent
This seems to make playing an Agent focused strategy against a minion player fairly untenable, especially if it's an influencing rather than combat focused agent strategy. Any thoughts on why they made this limitation? Obviously it's pretty tenuous thematically, but I could make the leap in logic that against a minion player the hazards represent threats by the forces of good and that your agents are there to influence elements to the side of the free peoples rather than Sauron.
It was too strong. This was the rule before Minion players got +5 extra GI in the tournament rules, but still. Also note the errata "Agent attacks against minions are always detainment." Even with this, agents are pretty annoying against Minions. Check out Golodhros, The Grimburgoth, and even Anarin. They have their own tap abilities and are annoying to minion players. Baduila is annoying to everyone.
Bob654 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:15 pm So the rule is pretty clear, but I was looking for some advice for what to be aware of if I wanted to house rule ignore that and play agents without restrictions against minion players. In the Lidless Eye rulebook, the restriction on agent cards falls under the section for "overly powerful or mechanically doesn't work" rather than the optional list of "thematically doesn't make sense" so I didn't know if there was an abuse there against a minion player that I have yet to discover.
One thing to realize is that many minion factions (Orcs and Trolls) have the number for influencing-away set to 0. This is basically a +7-9 difference depending on the faction. In general, the range of possible minion characters have lower mind and less DI compared to the range of hero characters, so it is easier to influence them away. Also note the homesite bonuses for influence and prowess. Many of the stronger agents have homesites where minions are likely to be. Without the agent restrictions and nerfs against minion players, those stronger agents would have a 60-90% chance of wounding any of the Lieutenants and Ringwraiths moving to a Haven.
Bob654
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:02 pm

Thanks for all your input on my questions.
Agents were something I never could quite figure out how to make work when I was 12 years old, so now I'm very fascinated to try to crack this strategy. I'm trying to build hazard sides that are as versatile as possible against any potential resource sides, so I was a little disheartened that it seemed like Agents were so neutered against minion players. It sounds like it might not be quite as bad as it looks though, so I'll just have to feel it out to see how it goes.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

There is proposal that tries to regulate the Wizardhaven questions:
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=3633

According to the proposal, types of sites in play take precedence, but they are not alone that matter.
If there is no site card in play for given site, types of site card that players may include in their Location Decks are taken into account.
So if Fallen Radagast participates in play and if Rhosgobel is not in play, agents cannot move to Rhosgobel (obviously if Wizardhaven version of Rhosgobel is in play, they cannot move there too).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”