Playing a card with Crown of Flowers that targets a character

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Yangtze2000
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CDavis7M wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:19 amAnd the cost must be paid before the action can be taken.
Yes, but not when the action is declared.

It's only necessary to pay any cost when the action is resolved. If there is no challenge to the play of a card then the card resolves immediately and the cost is paid. If there is a challenge to the play of a card, then by the time cards farther up the chain of events are resolved it may be that the first card is negated, in which case no cost is paid, because no action is carried out.
Yangtze2000
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:33 am
Order will be:

Marvels Told (if it will be unable to resolve, the two next actions will not resolve too)
Discard hazard event.
CC performed by Sage.

Seem like you have quite different (than mine) understanding of Active Conditions.
Really? It looks like to me we are saying much the same thing. Please explain where we differ.

BTW, there is no Marvels Told action, that's the name of the card, but there is a Sage tapping that you missed out?
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Konrad Klar
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Yangtze2000 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:14 am Really? It looks like to me we are saying much the same thing. Please explain where we differ.
E.g. here:
Yangtze2000 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:14 am BTW, there is no Marvels Told action, that's the name of the card, but there is a Sage tapping that you missed out?
There is such action as Marvels Told. If you disagree then you must explain yourself how cards like Many Sorrows Befall, Blind to the West do work; what exactly they target.

I did not miss Sage tapping. I think that sage taps at the same moment when Marvels Told and that the sage must be in play and in tapped state at the moment when Marvels Told tries to resolve in chain of effects - otherwise Marvels Told will not resolve.
Yangtze2000 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:39 pm I still disagree regards Annotation 5 and 6. They come from the ill-conceived idea that active conditions are a card's 'cost to play'. That way lies madness.
Annotation 5 is so "mad" as it sounds.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Yangtze2000
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:50 amThere is such action as Marvels Told.
What does the Marvels Told action do, please?
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:50 amI think that sage taps at the same moment when Marvels Told and that the sage must be in play and in tapped state at the moment when Marvels Told tries to resolve in chain of effects - otherwise Marvels Told will not resolve.
Yes, at the moment when Marvels Told (the card) tries to resolve in chain of effects, not on declaration. Paying the cost is part of the resolution, not the declaration. A declaration is just that: a declaration. No actions are taken. No annotation should be permitted to overturn that basic concept.
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Konrad Klar
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Yangtze2000 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:57 am What does the Marvels Told action do, please?
It is a container for all actions that it creates. Player does not declare a discarding of event, cc performed by sage independently.
He declares them together along with Marvels Told.
Yangtze2000 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:57 am Yes, at the moment when Marvels Told (the card) tries to resolve in chain of effects, not on declaration. Paying the cost is part of the resolution, not the declaration. A declaration is just that: a declaration. No actions are taken. No annotation should be permitted to overturn that basic concept.
Annotation 5: If an action requires an entity to tap as a condition for the action's main
effect, that entity must be untapped when the action is declared; else, the action may
not be declared. Tap the entity at this point; this is considered synonymous with the
action's declaration, i.e., it is not a separate action. When it comes time to resolve the
action in its chain of effects, that entity must still be in play and tapped or the action is
canceled.
Your "basic concept" contradicts with Annotation 5.
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CDavis7M
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Yangtze2000 wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:57 am Paying the cost is part of the resolution, not the declaration. A declaration is just that: a declaration. No actions are taken. No annotation should be permitted to overturn that basic concept.
It's OK to think this way. I had thoughts like this once. But the design decision to have costs paid at declaration is the best choice, really the only choice. The Designers did a good job of trying to avoid the issue through regimented rules and card effects, but certain situations are complex and required it. The Sage paying for Marvels Told's effect cannot pay for a different cost in response to an action by the opponent. It is better for the players to be able to decision-make based on the existing game state.
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