In the Name of Mordor

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Mordakai
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In the Name of Mordor

Post by Mordakai »

Hi there, quick question about this card:

Image

I'm pretty sure this card can cancel and discard a Nazgûl played as permanent event, but, can it cancel the effect of The Witch King of Angmar once it has been tapped and became a long-event?

Image

Thanks a lot.
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Konrad Klar
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by Konrad Klar »

I think that yes.

Even if not represented by a card, long-event is still long-event.
It is not possible to perform action "discard" on it but "cancel" may be performed.
I do not think that the actions are tied, i.e. actions that may be performed only in conjunction one with other.

Similarly
Against the Shadow: The Sun Unveiled
C3 Resource: Short-event

Playable on a character at a if Gates of Morning is in play. Remove all hazard permanent-events on the character and, if tapped, untap him. "And the Shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth..."-LotRVI
"Remove all hazard permanent-events on the character" may be performed even if "untap him" is not possible (e.g. if target controls Dreams of Lore).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.

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CDavis7M
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:46 am
Even if not represented by a card, long-event is still long-event.
You left this context out:
CRF - Witch-king of Angmar" wrote:Although he becomes a long-event when tapped, he is discarded when the effect resolves just like other Nazgûl. The long-event effect will remain until the appropriate time.
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:46 am
It is not possible to perform action "discard" on it but "cancel" may be performed.
I do not think that the actions are tied, i.e. actions that may be performed only in conjunction one with other.
The "discard" action is separate from the "cancel" action (which can result discarding). However, the issue here is that In the Name of Mordor "cancels and discards one Nagul hazard event." If the Witch-king is "not represented by a card," as you mention, that means that the long-event has already resolved. So the event is not in play and so it cannot be targeted by the "cancel" effect. It's true that the ongoing effects are in play, and could potentially be targeted, but In the Name of Mordor does not work that way. In the Name of Mordor does not cancel "ongoing effects of Nazgul events," only the events themselves.

Compare to Gates, Doors, and Noose of the Sea which actually cancel ongoing effects in addition to discarding.
"all hazard environment effects are canceled"
" all resource environment effects are canceled"
"The on-going effects of all resource short-events that were played during the organization phase are cancelled"

The entire point of the clarification to The Witch-king was to make it so that his effect works exactly the same as the other short-events despite it being a long-event.

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Mordakai wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:15 am
I'm pretty sure this card can cancel and discard a Nazgûl played as permanent event, but, can it cancel the effect of The Witch King of Angmar once it has been tapped and became a long-event?
You can cancel The Witch-king using In the Name of Mordor but you will need to play it in response, thereby negating resolution of the tapped long-event Witch-king. When the tapped Witch-king resolves in the chain of effects, it will be discarded per the CRF clarification and now it is too late. If the Witch-king stayed in play like it used to before the clarification, then you could just discard/cancel it.

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Mordakai
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by Mordakai »

All understood, thanks a lot!!
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

kodi
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by kodi »

CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
You can cancel The Witch-king using In the Name of Mordor but you will need to play it in response, thereby negating resolution of the tapped long-event Witch-king. When the tapped Witch-king resolves in the chain of effects, it will be discarded per the CRF clarification and now it is too late. If the Witch-king stayed in play like it used to before the clarification, then you could just discard/cancel it.
And what happens if I play In The Name of Mordor to With king when is permanent and the opponent taps in response to convert in long event?

Thank you!

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Mordakai
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by Mordakai »

Aaaannndd... what if the actions are in the opposite order? I mean: I play In the Name of Mordor on an permanent Witch King, and my opponent, in response to that, activates it, discarding it and turning it into a long event...

By the same reasoning (i think) now it does not works, as the Witch King is no longer on the table, just remains his "ongoinf effect" as long event when my In the Name of Mordor is resolved. Correct?
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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Mordakai
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by Mordakai »

kodi wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:31 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
You can cancel The Witch-king using In the Name of Mordor but you will need to play it in response, thereby negating resolution of the tapped long-event Witch-king. When the tapped Witch-king resolves in the chain of effects, it will be discarded per the CRF clarification and now it is too late. If the Witch-king stayed in play like it used to before the clarification, then you could just discard/cancel it.
And what happens if I play In The Name of Mordor to With king when is permanent and the opponent taps in response to convert in long event?

Thank you!
Ninja'd :D :D
C'mon, not the Elves of Lindon AGAIN...

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CDavis7M
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Re: In the Name of Mordor

Post by CDavis7M »

kodi wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:31 am
CDavis7M wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:14 am
You can cancel The Witch-king using In the Name of Mordor but you will need to play it in response, thereby negating resolution of the tapped long-event Witch-king. When the tapped Witch-king resolves in the chain of effects, it will be discarded per the CRF clarification and now it is too late. If the Witch-king stayed in play like it used to before the clarification, then you could just discard/cancel it.
And what happens if I play In The Name of Mordor to With king when is permanent and the opponent taps in response to convert in long event?
In the Name of Mordor fails if the opponent taps it in response, because the Witch-king will resolve first and with the Clarification, it will be discarded just as a short-event is discarded.

Under the old rules, the long-event would remain in play and would then be canceled (same as using Marvels Told with WK tapping in response under old rules). ICE gave Witch-king that CRF clarification so that it worked the same as the short-event Nazguls.

The Rules on Nazgul changed multiple times. It was clarified that it became tapped and a short/long event upon declaration. Then it was clarified that tapping the Nazgul for their effect "declares" the short/long event as if it were played from your hand (so neither the permanent or the short/long event are in play upon tapping of the Nazgul). And this WK of Angmar clarification came, I think after all of those. But noticed that In the Name of Mordor doesn't get the "special" clarification of Praise to Elbereth. Still, it "cancels" as well as discards, so it can be used in response to a tapped Nazgul ("cancel" works because it will negate resolution of a declared card) while Wizard's River Horses does not work (you cannot discard a declared card since it is not in play).
Mordakai wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:35 am
Aaaannndd... what if the actions are in the opposite order? I mean: I play In the Name of Mordor on an permanent Witch King, and my opponent, in response to that, activates it, discarding it and turning it into a long event...

By the same reasoning (i think) now it does not works, as the Witch King is no longer on the table, just remains his "ongoinf effect" as long event when my In the Name of Mordor is resolved. Correct?
I think this is the same question as above? Unlike every other long-event in the game (per rules on long events), the Witch-king's effect will last even though the card is not in play (CRF: "The long-event effect will remain until the appropriate time"). So, this also means that the Witch-king cannot be played again until the on-going effect has been removed due to the rules on "Unique" cards ("If a card states that it is "unique" or that it "may not be duplicated,'' only one such card (or its effects) may be in play at a time").

Under the old rules before the CRF Clarification, The Witch-king would be cancelled (and could be discarded by Marvels Told) but when you see that Witch-king is discarded per the clarification then you can see that In the Name of Mordor doesn't stop a Nazgul from tapping in response. This is the point of the clarification. Now the Witch-king works the same as the other Nazgul. Praise to Elbereth has a special clarification that Nazgul cannot be tapped in response, In the Name of Mordor does not.

More discussion on this here: https://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/v ... eth#p35727

Also note that given the changes in to Nagul over time, some of the discussion on them is incorrect. Like how Ichabod overruled the discussion of Wizard Horses in the Player Guide (as shown in my linked post).

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