Curiosity: Wisdom to Wield on FW's Orc or Troll

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CDavis7M
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If there is an explicit restriction in the rules/cards, then an effect must specific override that restriction. This is how ICE ruled. This is how the game works. Failure to recognize this is the reason for many of the misunderstandings in the URD and in the CoE rulings.

Examples of how this works:
  • "even a Hobbit" specifically overrides the explicit restriction "may only be brought into play at his home site."
  • "The Balrog gains scout skill and may have followers" specifically overrides the explicit restriction "he may not have any followers."
  • "may bring into play one character with up to a 6 mind" specifically overrides the explicit restriction "you may not start or bring into play any character with a mind greater than 5."
  • "can be played at a site that is already tapped" specifically overrides the explicit restriction "playing a faction card, ally card, information card, or item card (unless stated otherwise on the card) requires an untapped character and an untapped site."
What doesn't work:
  • "You may play Orc and Troll characters and include them in your starting company" does not specifically overcome the explicit restriction "May not be included with a starting company" on Burat, etc.
  • "you may bring any Ringwraith followers into play with your Ringwraith's company as you have in your hand" does not specifically override "a non-Orc, non-Troll character may not be brought into play at this site."
  • "A character (even a Hobbit) may be brought into play" does not specifically override "you may not start or bring into play any character with a mind greater than 5."
  • "the sage bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf" does not specifically override "an Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource" nor "but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored" for a FW Orc or Troll.
Bearing a ring as though a Dwarf does not reference the MEWH restrictions and so it cannot overcome it. An effect having the purpose of satisfying the "Dwarf" condition of Dwarven rings does not extend to other purposes, and does not overcome the FW restriction on Orcs and Trolls.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:27 am "even a Hobbit" specifically overrides the explicit restriction "may only be brought into play at his home site."
As though there would be any restriction that prevents a bringing Hobbit into play outside of his home site.
CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:27 am "the sage bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf" does not specifically override "an Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource" nor "but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored" for a FW Orc or Troll.
Yes.
CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:27 am Bearing a ring as though a Dwarf does not reference the MEWH restrictions and so it cannot overcome it. An effect having the purpose of satisfying the "Dwarf" condition of Dwarven rings does not extend to other purposes, and does not overcome the FW restriction on Orcs and Trolls.
Yes.

As soon a FW' players Orc or Troll bearing a Dwarven Ring bears the ring as though he would be Dwarf, the restriction disappears. There is nothing to overcome. It may be also perceived as an overcoming the restriction implicitly. I.e. creating a situation in which the restriction does not apply anymore.
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CDavis7M
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ICE wrote:The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
Just because an Orc is considered a Dwarf for one single purpose does not mean that he is not considered an orc for any other purpose. If it isn't there it isn't there.

The FW's Orc is still an Orc. The hero version of the Dwarven Ring is still a hero resource item. And so the FW's Orc cannot use it.
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Underage may be charged for some crimes like he would be an adult. But, for someone, he may not be sentenced as an adult. Just because he is underage.

Such approach undermines a sense of exception.

Hero item, even if it would explicitly refer to an Orc bearer, cannot be used by FW's Orc.
The references, except references to CPs and movement restrictions, are inaccessible for Orc bearer.
If FW's Orc bearer would become (or would become treated as) Elf bearer, then he would use the item, but the references to an Orc bearer would become invalid.

If some effect causes a treating a bearer of X as Dwarf bearer of X, then:

- it is an effect ONLY for purposes of bearing of X,
- it works WHATEVER, WHOEVER checks whether bearer of X is Dwarf bearer of X.
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CDavis7M
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You came up with your own understanding of the game, thinking that the ICE Designers were incompetent, without reading ICE's rulings. This is why your understanding of the game finds inconsistencies between the rules, rulings, and cards. It's not how the game works.

I read ICE's rulings to understand the game. My rationales above are consistent with the rules and the rulings. It's how the game works.
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Konrad Klar
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I am not trying to be compliant with anyone. I am trying to be consistent, that sometimes means that I am not compliant with someone or with something. Because it sometimes precludes each other.
My best is an explaining of my view as best as I can and reading the opposite opinions as carefully as I can.

If you did not notice, I did not pointed here any error of ICE. Everything what I said in this thread is my understanding of a text of Wisdom to Wield as it is written.
Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
I agree.
If something is here it is here WHATEVER, WHOEVER checks whether it is here.
If it is not stated that something is here depending on who/what checks, then it is here independently from who/what checks.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:45 pm If you did not notice, I did not pointed here any error of ICE. Everything what I said in this thread is my understanding of a text of Wisdom to Wield as it is written.
I never said that your misunderstanding is with Wisdom to Wield. Instead, you misunderstand how the rules work. The MEWH rules still restrict a FW orc from using a hero Dwarven Ring regardless of Wisdom to Wield.

There are many examples where your ideas are inconsistent with ICE's rulings. These examples show misunderstandings of the rules. Your misunderstanding is evident here regardless of any contrary ruling. Still, there is a ruling inconsistent with your beliefs.

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Konrad Klar wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:08 am I have started thinking about Wisdom to Wield when I have seen CRF entry for Focus Palantír.
Will not allow a Ringwraith to use a palantír.
The Lidless Eye: Focus Palantír
Resource: Permanent-event

Sage only. Playable on a Palantír with a sage in the company. The bearer of the Palantír now has the ability to use the Palantír. Discard Focus Palantír if the Palantír's company moves. "Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it..."-LotRIII
Focus Palantír does not affect a character. It affects a Palantír. So affected Palantír in turn gives its bearer the ability to use the Palantír.
Wisdom to Wield affects a character. Dwarven Ring gives some bonuses and abilities to its Dwarf bearer.
I think that if not "Playable on a non-Ringwraith sage" in text of Wisdom to Wield, then even Ringwraith would be able to bear the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf or would be able to use the Palantír.
Another example of taking the CRF out of context in order to misunderstand other rules. This ruling has nothing to do with Focus Palantir affecting a Palantir and Wisdom to Wield affecting a character.

The reason for the ruling is that even if a Ringwraith can "use" a Palantir according to the condition of the Palantir, there is still a hard restriction in the rules that "a Ringwraith may carry items (including rings) but may not use them."
ICE 1998/06/25 wrote:>So if I have a sage Ringwraith holding a Palantir at a Darkhaven and I
>play Focus Palantir on him, does the Focus Palantir card over-ride the
>normal rule that Ringwraiths cannot use items?


No, the bearer still has to be able to use items to use the Palantir,
and the Ringwraith isn't.


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The bearer of the hero Dwarven ring still has to be able to use hero items to use the hero Dwarven Ring, and the Fallen-wizard's orc isn't.

--------------------

Putting aside "use" of the item, the FW orc still cannot tap to initiate the effect of the hero Dwarven Ring since "an Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource."
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:57 pm Another example of taking the CRF out of context in order to misunderstand other rules. This ruling has nothing to do with Focus Palantir affecting a Palantir and Wisdom to Wield affecting a character.
Hopefully the ruling has something to do with your understanding of it. Whether the understanding is valid or not.
No, the bearer still has to be able to use items to use the Palantir,
and the Ringwraith isn't.
Sadly, without explanation.
Anyway, I agree.
I have tried to explain why.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:43 am Hero item, even if it would explicitly refer to an Orc bearer, cannot be used by FW's Orc.
The references, except references to CPs and movement restrictions, are inaccessible for Orc bearer.
There is an obstacle that prevents a Ringwraith from using any item.
If there would be an effect that would cause a Ringwraith to be treated as a character of different race, then the obstacle could be circumvent ("overcome implicitly"). The obstacle could be also overcome explicitly ("target is able to use a Palantir he bears").
Due to stipulation of Wisdom to Wield's text, the card is not such option.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:22 pm If there would be an effect that would cause a Ringwraith to be treated as a character of different race, then the obstacle could be circumvent ("overcome implicitly").
This is the fault in your reasoning -- Wisdom to Wield does NOT cause the Fallen-wizard's Orc to be treated as a Dwarf. The character merely "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf." He is only considered a Dwarf for purposes of bearing the dwarven ring, not for purposes of tapping to initiate hero resource effects and not for "use" of hero resources. Your understanding is inconsistnet with ICE's ruling practices.
ICE wrote:The main thing to remember, when making rulings based on the rules and the cards, is that if it isn't there, then it isn't there. If a card says a site counts as a Haven for purposes of healing, that does not mean the site counts as a Haven for any other purposes. If a card says it can be played as a resource, that does not mean it counts as a resource at any time except when it is being played. Remember: If it isn't there, it isn't there.
--------------------

Furthermore, restrictions in the rules may NOT be "overcome implicitly" as you suggest. Lack of an allowance in the rules may be "overcome implicitly" (there is nothing to overcome), but a restriction in the rules requires specificity.

There is no specificity in Wisdom to Wield with respect to the Fallen-wizard Orc/Troll restrictions in MEWH.

Just read the MEWH rules. They account for all possibilities. These MEWH restrictions may not be simply overcome by a mere MELE card. Only the MEWH cards can override the MEWH restrictions. At the very least this should be obvious.
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CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:25 pm This is the fault in your reasoning -- Wisdom to Wield does NOT cause the Fallen-wizard's Orc to be treated as a Dwarf. The character merely "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf." He is only considered a Dwarf for purposes of bearing the dwarven ring, not for purposes of tapping to initiate hero resource effects and not for "use" of hero resources. Your understanding is inconsistnet with ICE's ruling practices.
Thanks for putting it so clearly.
I am treating it as a constructive action.

So, once again.
Target of Wisdom to Wield that bears Dwarven Ring, bears the ring as though he were a Dwarf.
Orc/Troll under control of minion player cannot use hero item, as well a character of any other race under control of minion player.
Orc/Troll under control of FW player cannot use of hero item. Character of different race under control of FW player can use hero item.
Hero (and minion) Dwarven Rings say "Tap a Dwarf bearer to [some effect]".
This refers to a Dwarf bearer. If the bearer is not considered Dwarf bearer then it does not work, whether the bearer is normally Elf, or Orc, or Troll.
If it does work, it is only because bearer is considered Dwarf bearer. Only for purposes of bearing the ring, of course.
But if so, then he is considered Dwarf bearer (only or purposes of bearing the ring) WHATEVER, WHOEVER checks whether bearer is Dwarf bearer.
Also for FW rules that say:

"An Orc or Troll character may be the bearer of a hero item, but all bonuses and
special abilities are ignored (all restrictions to movement and playability still
apply)."

"An Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource
(e.g., Praise to Elbereth, Great Ship, etc.)."

Dwarf can tap to initiate an effect of Dwarven Ring. Elf cannot. Orc cannot too. But if he is treated as Dwarf bearer?


P.S.

Seriously:
I am preparing for speech in court tomorrow (as an accuser).

Thanks for exericse.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:16 pm Dwarf can tap to initiate an effect of Dwarven Ring. Elf cannot. Orc cannot too. But if he is treated as Dwarf bearer?
A Fallen-wizard's Orc under the effect of Wisdom to Wield is a Dwarf for purposes of the Dwarven Ring but is still an Orc for purposes of the MEWH special orc and troll rules.

Even putting that aside, it should be obvious that a mere MELE card cannot override the overly strict Fallen-wizard requirements of MEWH. Orcs in MEWH are banned from using hero items in numerous ways, using broad wording to cover all situations.

Only MEWH cards override the MEWH restrictions.
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:19 pm Orcs in MEWH are banned from using hero items in numerous ways, using broad wording to cover all situations.
For ALL:
Yes. As long as they are considered Orcs (bearers).

For YOU:
How about a hypothetical effect that would say: "a target character bears all items as though he were an Elf|" ?
Would be the target Orc character under control of FW prevented from using the Bow of the Galadhrim?
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:55 pm How about a hypothetical effect that would say: "a target character bears all items as though he were an Elf|" ?
Would be the target Orc character under control of FW prevented from using the Bow of the Galadhrim?
As mentioned above, the way that this game works is that a restriction in the rules or on a card (not merely lack of an allowance) must be specifically overridden. This is consistent across all rules, cards, and rulings.

The rules say what can be done.
The cards say what can be done.
Anything not allowed by the rules cannot be done unless a card says that it can be done.
Given this framework, there is no need for the rules to provide restrictions describing what cannot be done.
So if the rules specifically state that some action cannot be done in restricted circumstances, it is clear that the action can be done in other circumstances (likely by certain card effect).
Therefore, those certain card effect that merely provide an allowance for the action do NOT allow the action in the restricted circumstances, only in other circumstances.

The hypothetical effect fails to specifically reference or overcome the MEWH restrictions. So such an effect does not work on a Fallen-wizard's Orc and Troll characters.

Even if the hypothetical effect said "a target character bears all items as though he were only an Elf" or "a target character bears all items as though he were an Elf instead of his normal race" this would still not be sufficient because this would only overcome 1 of the 2 relevant MEWH restrictions:
  • An Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource.
  • An Orc or Troll character may be the bearer of a hero item, but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored (all restrictions to movement and playability still apply).
The only way for the hypothetical effect to work is to override both restrictions:
"a target character (even a Fallen-wizard's Orc and Troll characters) bears may use all items as though he were an Elf"

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You can see examples of MEWH cards that override the MEWH restrictions in MEWH and in Dream Cards. But this MELE card certainly does not override the MEWH restrictions.

A Merrier World specifically overrides the MEWH restriction that "all [non-stage] marshalling point cards are only worth 1 marshalling point each to a Fallen-wizard (regardless of their printed value)."
Image

Bad Company and A Strident Spawn specifically override the MEWH restriction that "You may not play Orc and Troll characters until you have played the appropriate card" because they both specifically mention Orcs and Trolls.
Image

Thrall of the Voice does NOT override the MEWH restrictions on Orcs and Trolls because it says nothing about Orcs or Trolls.
Image

Dream Cards follow this same practice:
Image
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:34 pm Even if the hypothetical effect said "a target character bears all items as though he were only an Elf" or "a target character bears all items as though he were an Elf instead of his normal race" this would still not be sufficient because this would only overcome 1 of the 2 relevant MEWH restrictions:
An Orc or Troll character may not tap to initiate an effect from a hero resource.
An Orc or Troll character may be the bearer of a hero item, but all bonuses and special abilities are ignored (all restrictions to movement and playability still apply).
The only way for the hypothetical effect to work is to override both restrictions:
"a target character (even a Fallen-wizard's Orc and Troll characters) bears may use all items as though he were an Elf"
I think that an using of an item includes both having bonuses/abilities that come from just bearing it and these which involve some activities (discarding of an item, tapping an item or bearer).

Otherwise "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf." would not allow a character that is normally Elf to tap for effect of a Dwarven Ring.
I.e. Elf could only enjoy increased attributes, MPs (and CPs).

If you are suggesting that a character may be at the same time, for the same purposes a character with multiple races, then Elf character under effect of Wisdom to Wield would have both bonuses for Dwarf bearer and for non-Dwarf bearer (and CPs too).
Then FW's bearer of a hero Dwarven Ring could be Orc bearer, and Dwarf bearer at the same time. Being an Orc bearer would negate any benefits of being Dwarf bearer of a hero Dwarven Ring, except MPs (counted for both races).
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Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:00 am I think that an using of an item includes both having bonuses/abilities that come from just bearing it and these which involve some activities (discarding of an item, tapping an item or bearer).
This point is not disputed. The rulings describe "use" of an item as including both modifiers/penalties/abilities and also activation of an effect of the item.

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CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:34 pm Even if the hypothetical effect said "a target character bears all items as though he were only an Elf" or "a target character bears all items as though he were an Elf instead of his normal race"
Konrad Klar wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:00 am If you are suggesting that a character may be at the same time, for the same purposes a character with multiple races, then Elf character under effect of Wisdom to Wield would have both bonuses for Dwarf bearer and for non-Dwarf bearer (and CPs too).
Another way to put it would be: "a target character bears all items as though he were an Elf for all purposes." I think that this language and the underlined language above at least suggests that a Fallen-wizard's Orc/Troll character would not be held to the MEWH restrictions for purposes of bearing items.

But I'm not suggesting that a character may be multiple races. An Orc under the effect of Wisdom to Wield is still an Orc. It's just that the Orc "bears the Dwarven Ring as though he were a Dwarf." Wisdom to Wield allows a character to satisfy the conditions of the Dwarven Ring, it does not mean that the character not an Orc. I've said this several times:
CDavis7M wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:00 pm It's still an orc. The card effect does not change that.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:37 pm While the Orc satisfies the conditions of the Dwarven Ring's effect, the Orc is unable to use or tap for the effect due to the MEWH restrictions on orcs.
CDavis7M wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:24 pm Wisdom to Wield does not allow a FW Orc to use a Dwarves Ring. The restrictions on FW Orcs still apply even if they meet the Ring's conditions.
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