Ride Against the Enemy + Ready to His Will

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Theo
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Ride Against the Enemy makes a hazard creature attack that can then be targeted by Ready to His Will. How does one place RthW "with the creature," when the creature itself has no physical form? I don't recall previous discussion of this.

Should RthW simply be discarded after canceling because there is no physical creature on with which it can be placed?
Should some hazard creature entity be imagined with which RthW is placed?
Should RthW be placed with RAtE, which made the hazard creature? Does the creature even continue to exist after the attack is canceled?
Should RthW be placed with the Character card upon which the attack made by RAtE was based?

I guess I would favor the last, since RAtE already seems to use the character card similarly to a creature card in terms of MP. But maybe there being no creature is more "correct" with existing rules?
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:15 pm Ride Against the Enemy makes a hazard creature attack that can then be targeted by Ready to His Will.
No, it cannot be targeted by Ready to His Will. Ready to His Will is "playable on an ... hazard creature." It is not playable on a "hazard creature attack." Ride Against the Enemy only brings a hazard creature attack into play, not any hazard creature (there is no creature, only a character). The character revealed by the effect of Ride Against the Enemy is still in the player's hand is not a creature and generally cannot be targeted since it is not in play.

Memories of Old Torture, while similar to Ready to His Will, is "playable on a ... hazard creature attack," instead of a hazard creature. Still, the attack created by Ride Against the Enemy is not actually the creature's (character's) attack. It is merely an attack "with the attributes of the revealed character." So Memories of Old Torture doesn't work either.
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Theo
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Good catch. I guess the rulings on Bring Our Curses Home and Foes Shall Fall do not generalize to targeting, then. Seems reasonable, if thematically strained.

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RthW: Does the creature becoming an ally cause it to cease being a creature? If so, how does one "place this card with the creature"? Should it instead be "place this card with the ally"? It sort of gets into a more general question: conversion of a card type does not apparently violate active condition rules?

If not, maybe Ready to His Will continually cancels attacks from the creature/ally, such as in company vs. company combat. Th creature/ally has become a pacifist. :wink:
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:24 am RthW: Does the creature becoming an ally cause it to cease being a creature? If so, how does one "place this card with the creature"? Should it instead be "place this card with the ally"? It sort of gets into a more general question: conversion of a card type does not apparently violate active condition rules?
Or consider them joint actions.
CDavis7M wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:13 pm Memories of Old Torture, while similar to Ready to His Will, is "playable on a ... hazard creature attack," instead of a hazard creature. Still, the attack created by Ride Against the Enemy is not actually the creature's (character's) attack. It is merely an attack "with the attributes of the revealed character." So Memories of Old Torture doesn't work either.
I think that it has the two targets, hazard creature attack and the creature. If at least one does not exist at declaration, the card cannot be played.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:44 am I think that it has the two targets, hazard creature attack and the creature.
Memories of Old Torture only has 1 single target - the "hazard creature attack." The "creature" and the "attacks" which are operated on by the effects are not targets -- they are merely derived from the targeted "hazard creature attack." The reason why the "creature" is not a target is because the only choice the player makes is "playable on a ... hazard creature attack." The choosing is the "targeting" is. Any deriving of entities to affect on based on a target is not "targeting." There are many effects that derive entities to affect without any choosing by the player -- these are called "non-targeted effects."

Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:44 am If at least one does not exist at declaration, the card cannot be played.
Memories of Old Torture does not work if attempting to make an ally as suggested in the original post. But even if no creature card exists to become an ally, Memories of Old Torture can be played for the effect "All attacks of the creature are canceled". A "hazard creature attack" is the same as an attack of a hazard creature. The "attacks of the creature" being operated on by Memories are the "creature attacks" of Ride Against.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:57 pm Targeting: Choosing a specific entity through which a card or effect will be played out. An entity chosen as such is the "target" of the action.
There is no choice between multiple Aragorn II instances when Return of the King is being played. There is no choice between multiple non-automatic faced attacks when The Tormented Earth is being played.
There may be a choice between multiple sages and multiple non-environment hazard long/permanent-events. But when a sage taps to discard the event he is specified as target of 2nd action of Marvels Told. If the sage would not be target of Marvels Told then Last Child of Ungoliant could tap as an active condition of Marvels Told; Tom Bombadil could tap as an active condition of Voices of Malice.

You are using the outdated definition of Targeting from Lidless Eye. You could use as well the definition of Passive Condition.
Condition, Passive: An action that causes another action to take effect.
and conclude that because end of untap phase is not an action, then it is not passive condition of cc made by character with Lure of Senses at haven.
Or you could conclude that untap phase is an action,
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:36 pm There is no choice between multiple Aragorn II instances when Return of the King is being played.

There is no choice between multiple non-automatic faced attacks when The Tormented Earth is being played.
You misunderstand "targeting." It's often the case that there is only 1 valid target in play to choose from. But the player still chooses to play the target on that entity.

Return of the King states "Aragorn II only" which in METW means the same as "playable on Aragorn II only." The player targets/chooses to play the card on Aragorn. It doesn't matter that there is only 1 Aragorn to choose from. "A card that states it is playable on or with a certain entity targets that entity."
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:36 pm when a sage taps to discard the event he is specified as target of 2nd action of Marvels Told
Again, you're misunderstanding what "targeting" is. It's true that the player chooses the Sage for satisfying an active condition, but the Sage is not chosen as the specific entity through which an effect is played out. The rules state that satisfying action conditions is not an action/effect of the card: "Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions." The Sage is not a target of any effect of Marvels Told nor is Marvels Told played on or with the Sage. The Sage is not a target.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:36 pm If the sage would not be target of Marvels Told then Last Child of Ungoliant could tap as an active condition of Marvels Told; Tom Bombadil could tap as an active condition of Voices of Malice.
Such tapping has nothing to do with "targeting." It has to do with "affecting." This is why the MEWH rules are MORE STRICT than merely targeting.

Misunderstandings can happen if words are ignored.

A hero resource event card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.


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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:36 pm You are using the outdated definition of Targeting from Lidless Eye. You could use as well the definition of Passive Condition.
The description of targeting in MELE is NOT outdated. Of course you provide no basis for your argument.
Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:36 pm You could use as well the definition of Passive Condition.
Condition, Passive: An action that causes another action to take effect.
and conclude that because end of untap phase is not an action, then it is not passive condition of cc made by character with Lure of Senses at haven.
Or you could conclude that untap phase is an action
You misunderstand how passive conditions work and we've discussed this in other posts.

The different between the description of "targeting" and "passive conditions" in the MELE rules is that the description of targeting is not outdated. That is exactly how targeting works and the ICE rulings, while inconsistent originally, became consistent after the CRF updates with MELE. Whereas the definition of Passive Conditions in MELE (which you cited) is merely a summary of the earlier description in the METW Companion, which itself has been expanded in several subsequent ICE rulings.

"A passive condition causes an action to happen as stated on a card already in play." The game being in the Untap Phase may be a condition that causes some action to happen.

You should read the rulings.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:55 pm You need to read the rules and the ICE rulings to understand this.
...and to hammer them in my head.
Or to save some criticism.
CDavis7M wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:55 pm A hero resource event card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card.
A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
Still I do not see a reason for which Tom Bombadil could not tap to satisfy an active condition of Voices of Malice, if he is not a target of the card.
If it does not affect him, then he just will not make cc. After all he would not make cc from Marvel Told too.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:11 pm Still I do not see a reason for which Tom Bombadil could not tap to satisfy an active condition of Voices of Malice, if he is not a target of the card.
If it does not affect him, then he just will not make cc. After all he would not make cc from Marvel Told too.
If a hero resource card is moved from an untapped position to a tapped position, then the hero resource card has been affected. If that affect would occur as a result of an active condition of a minion event, then the MEWH rules would prevent it. Tom Bombadil is a hero resource card. Voices of Malice is a minion event card. Tom may not be tapped or otherwise affected by Voices of Malice.

Allies do not make corruption checks because allies do not have a corruption point total. Only characters have a corruption point total.
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Konrad Klar
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CDavis7M wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:13 pm If a hero resource card is moved from an untapped position to a tapped position, then the hero resource card has been affected. If that affect would occur as a result of an active condition of a minion event, then the MEWH rules would prevent it.
Ouch..
Then Gollum cannot tap for A Nice Place to Hide.
Right?
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:21 pm Then Gollum cannot tap for A Nice Place to Hide.
Right?
A minion resource event card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.
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By Catch-22, I am suspecting.
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