Clear skies / Hero events affecting minions

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Khamul the Easterling
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If Clear Skies is in Play, will it affect

1) characters of a minion or Balrog player?
2) orc charcters of a FW player?

Clear skies reads:
Einvironment Playable only if Gates of Morning is in play. The prowess of each character is modified by +2.
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Theo
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Yes to both.

Restriction to orc characters of a FW player is that they may not be targeted by hero resources. They can still be affected by those that aren't targeting.

Some confirmation:
ICE Netrep 1997/6/14 wrote:>Q: Do the bonuses that Hero long events like Star of High Hope and Sun
>and the short event The Evenstar give to elves, dunadain, and men apply
>to minion characters of those races as well?

Yes, those are bonuses to characters, and apply equally to minion and hero characters.
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CDavis7M
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Yup, even elf song,etc.
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Khamul the Easterling
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Thank you!

Only I don't really see the difference to, for instance, Forewarned is Forearmed (modifying auto-attacks) that was discussed here [Rules questions: Forewarned means Forearmed

I daresay that also FiF does not target cross-aligned specific sites, but why?
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CDavis7M
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Khamul the Easterling wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 5:15 pm Thank you!

Only I don't really see the difference to, for instance, Forewarned is Forearmed (modifying auto-attacks) that was discussed here [Rules questions: Forewarned means Forearmed

I daresay that also FiF does not target cross-aligned specific sites, but why?
There is a difference between "target" and "affect." There is no possibility in the rules to "target" an opponent's site with your resource. The reason that the ruling "Hero events cannot target or affect minion sites, and vice versa. News of the Shire is an exception" says "target" is because it is specifically an expansion of the corresponding MEWH rule to hero and minion players. The MEWH rules were drafted to cover ALL situations by using the word "affect" in addition to the word "target." For example, Forewarned is Forearmed does not target the site (it is a non-targeting effect), but it does affect the site (i.e., the reduction of the site's automatic attacks to one attack).

Note that News of the Shire is not the only exception as several resources specifically state that they apply to "all versions." The example ruling is that playing Tower Raided and Rebuild the Town on hero Moria causes minion Moria to be a Ruins & Lairs for the minion opponent, but not a border-hold.
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Khamul the Easterling
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OK, so if I get you right:

My own Hero events not tagetting anything in particular do affect my opponent's characters or sites etc. even if of different alignment, is that correct?

Examples:
My Clear skies will affect the orcs' and trolls' prowesses of my FW opponent
My Forewarned is Forearmed will reduce the # of auto-attacks of my Balrog opponent's sites.
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Theo
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There are some conflicting rules. I think CDavis was referencing:
CRF, Site wrote:Hero events cannot target or affect minion sites, and vice versa. News of the Shire is an exception.
I would interpret this as preventing Forewarned is Forearmed from reducing the number of automatic-attacks of a Balrog opponent's sites.

However, we also have:
CRF, Fallen-wizard wrote:You may use minion or hero resources to affect the automatic-attack at a site, regardless of the site's alignment.
The above Site rule was "extended" from the Fallen Wizard rules. It seems natural to me that the exception for affecting the automatic-attack would also be extended, but I don't recall seeing that explicitly. So right now, if you are playing Fallen alignment then Forewarned is Forearmed DOES affect Balrog opponent sites, but not if you are playing Hero. Pretty "neat".
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Konrad Klar
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Forewarned is Forearmed in first step causes that a site with multiple AA is reduced to having one AA.
It affects the isolated AA in second step (that does not happen if first step does not happen).
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 5:39 am So right now, if you are playing Fallen alignment then Forewarned is Forearmed DOES affect Balrog opponent sites, but not if you are playing Hero. Pretty "neat".
No because Forewarned is Forearmed specifically affects the site card and not the (automatic-)attack created when the site is entered:
"Any non-Dragon Lair site with more than one automatic-attack is reduced to having one automatic-attack"
It is the site that is affected.

The ruling "You may use minion or hero resources to affect the automatic-attack at a site, regardless of the site's alignment" is directed to a company facing an automatic-attack at a site, not to the automatic-attack attributes of the site card itself.

You can tell this from the actual rulings:
From: ich...@spamblock.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 29
Date: 1998/01/11

>According to the White Hand rules supplement, "A hero resource card may
>not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A
>minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero
>resource card."
>
>So, I can't play minion items, factions, etc. on a hero site. Does this
>also mean that I can't play A Nice Place to Hide or Ruse, minion
>resources, on a hero site to cancel the automatic attack? It would seem
>not.


Cancelling the automatic-attack does not target the site, so you could
play Ruse to cancel the attack at hero site.
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] CRF 11: Changes only
Date: 1998/04/08

Fallen-wizard
@ You may use minion or hero resources to affect the automatic-attack at a
site, regardless of the site's alignment.
This distinction between affecting the site and affecting the automatic-attack comes up again:
From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 52
Date: 1998/03/05

>I guess the basic question is:
>Is targeting the automatic-attack of a site the same as targeting a
>site?

No, if you are facing the attack. Modifying what the card says is
targeting the site, as in Rebuild the Town removing the automatic-
attack. Affecting the attack as you are facing it is not targeting
the site.

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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 5:04 pm Forewarned is Forearmed specifically affects the site card and not the (automatic-)attack created when the site is entered:
"Any non-Dragon Lair site with more than one automatic-attack is reduced to having one automatic-attack"
It is the site that is affected.
Yes it is the site that is affected. That doesn't mandate that the automatic attacks of the site aren't affected. With some breathtaking deduction, note that the automatic attacks of the site are indeed affected: they are the attribute of the site that is "reduced". Thus FiF qualifies for the Fallen-wizard exemption.
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Konrad Klar
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Theo wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:40 am
CDavis7M wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 5:04 pm Forewarned is Forearmed specifically affects the site card and not the (automatic-)attack created when the site is entered:
"Any non-Dragon Lair site with more than one automatic-attack is reduced to having one automatic-attack"
It is the site that is affected.
Yes it is the site that is affected. That doesn't mandate that the automatic attacks of the site aren't affected. With some breathtaking deduction, note that the automatic attacks of the site are indeed affected: they are the attribute of the site that is "reduced". Thus FiF qualifies for the Fallen-wizard exemption.
CRF wrote:A company may not play any resource during the site phase until they have faced all
automatic-attacks, unless that resource directly affects an automatic-attack.
Removing an automatic-attack does not directly affect it, although cancelling does.
Underline mine.

1.
An automatic-attack understood as an attribute of a site is not an entity that can be removed.
Even if there are no AAs at give site, the attribute still exists an has value "None".

2.
FiF affects concrete AA, in second step. There are many resources that could affect a concrete AA, but that cannot be played/do not work in given situation.
Mere fact that some resource could affect AA does not legitimize its use. If there are obstacles, such resource cannot be played/does not work.
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Theo
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1) "Reduced" is a different word from "removed". That CRF entry came from Rebuild the Town, which uses the word "loses". It is not clear that "reducing" is meant to imply "removing"; linguistically, something that has been reduced is specifically something that has NOT been removed.

2) Could you clarify what point you are trying to make? If the obstacle being considered is a rule that hero resources cannot affect minion sites, but another rule specifically allows certain FW hero resources to affect minion sites, then the FW rule allows bypassing of the obstacle (otherwise what is the purpose of the FW rule?).
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Konrad Klar
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1) Conceptual AA, or AA understood as an attribute of a site is unable to be removed. So my inference is that CRF says not about conceptual AA, but about concrete AA.

2). Quiet Lands could affect AA at [-me_rl-]. But if Balance Between Powers is in play, Quiet Lands cannot be played.
Forewarned is Forewarned does not affect minion sites. If it would affect a minion site it would also affect concrete AA at such site (the AA will become "cannot be canceled"). So it does not work here.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:40 am Yes it is the site that is affected. That doesn't mandate that the automatic attacks of the site aren't affected. With some breathtaking deduction, note that the automatic attacks of the site are indeed affected: they are the attribute of the site that is "reduced". Thus FiF qualifies for the Fallen-wizard exemption.
Your misunderstanding is that you think the CRF ruling is an "exemption" when I already provided the rulings and explained that it is merely a clarification that the MEWH rules do not have restrictions on playing resources that affect automatic-attacks.

It should be obvious that the CRF ruling on Fallen-wizards stating "A Fallen-wizard may use a minion resource to cancel the automatic-attack at a hero site, and vice versa" does NOT override the conflicting MEWH rule that "A hero resource event card may not target/affect a minion hero site card or a minion resource card" and vice versa. By ICE's own statements and definition, A ruling can only override a conflicting rule by errata and this ruling is not listed as errata.

The Forewarned is Forearmed hero event card affects the site and so it may not affect a minion site card at all, even considering the FW ruling being discussed.

---------

I've noticed that some people believe that the rules covered indirect links, but they do not unless they specifically say so. Forewarned is Forearmed affects the site card. The effect on the site card affects the automatic-attack in that it is removed. But Forewarned is Forearmed does not directly affect the automatic-attack. If you look at the ICE rulings you will see that they are consistent with my position.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed May 05, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CDavis7M
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Konrad Klar wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 5:30 pm 1) Conceptual AA, or AA understood as an attribute of a site is unable to be removed. So my inference is that CRF says not about conceptual AA, but about concrete AA.
In MECCG the term "automatic-attack" is used to describe both (i) the "automatic-attack" attribute listed on a site card and (ii) and combat-attack that is resolved when a company enters a site that has an automatic-attack attribute.

The CRF Entry on Rebuild the Town is consistent with my position above. Rebuild the town affects the site card, removing the automatic-attack, while the only cards that may be played when facing an automatic-attack upon entering the site are cards that affect the combat-attack. This is because any resources played before the automatic-attack has been faced MUST cancel the attack or be played during the strike sequence and only cards that affect the combat-attack may be played during the strike sequence. A card that affects the site does not affect the combat and so it may not be played during the strike sequence.
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