Playing characters in the same site as a Ringwraith

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Annatar
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:23 am
Location: Spain

Hi all! A discussion has taken place recently among some Spanish players regarding the possibility of play characters (non Ringwraith followers) in the same site where a Ringwraith is located, if the site is not a Haven.

For example, Ren the Ringwraith is in Barad-dûr. I can put an Orc character into play in this same site, considering that I will do it in a separate company what is going to move to another site in my Movement/Hazard phase?

ME:LE rulesbook says:
ME:LE, Standard rules, Companies, Limitations on Company Composition, p. 21
Unless at a Darkhaven, a Ringwraith may not be in a company with other characters.

But ME:LE rulesbook also says:
ME:LE, Standard rules, Bringing characters into play, p. 58
To play a character card, you must have enough general influence or direct influence available to control the character into play. In addition, you must meet both of the following requirements:
· If the character is not an agent, you may only play him at his home site at any Darkhaven site. If the character is an agent, you may only play him at his home site.
· If your Ringwraith is in play, your Ringwraith (or a character with enough direct influence to control the character to be played) must be at the site at which the character is to be played.

ME:LE, Standard rules, Bringing characters into play, p. 20
When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played. If the appropriate site is not available, you may not play the character.

CoE #67 says:
You may use one site card to represent multiple companies during the Organization Phase, but not during any other phase.

And CRF says:
CRF, Organization phase, Playing characters:
If you play a Ringwraith at a non-Darkhaven site where there is one of your non-Ringwraith companies, one of the companies must move that turn. If both companies are still there at the end of the movement/hazard phase, discard the non-Ringwraith company.
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CDavis7M
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Annatar wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:36 pm For example, Ren the Ringwraith is in Barad-dûr. I can put an Orc character into play in this same site, considering that I will do it in a separate company what is going to move to another site in my Movement/Hazard phase?
Yes, as long as the character is played as a new company under General Influence and not into Ren's company under Ren's direct influence.

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It's crucial to note that the CRF entry is from a Rulings Monday that was effectively immediately because it just covered an "ambiguous situation" while not reversing any ruling or introducing a new rule. Many misunderstandings come from not recognizing which rulings were intended to change the rules and which are merely explanations of how the rules work. This confusion seems to mostly come from the fact that ICE used the term "clarification" for both situations. Unfortunately the CRF does not indicate which is which. You have to go back and read the original ruling.

While not specifically stated, the ambiguity is whether a site card that is already in play for a company is "available" for the requirement:
"or [second case] he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played. If the appropriate site card is not available, you may not play the character."

A character is allowed to be played as a new/different company and there is nothing specifically preventing another's company's site from being available to use for another company as well. However, there is nothing saying that the site is available. Does "available" mean that the site is in the location-deck, or just that it is not in the discard pile, or what? The rules are ambiguous.

Ichabod's ruling clarifies that a site in play for one company is available for use by another character being played into a new company. This is the correct understanding of the rules. It is not a change to the rules.

The answer to the original question relies on recognizing what the ruling is and what it wasn't. If the rules were clear that a site in play was not available for use when playing a new character, and playing a Ringwraith was an exception to this rule specifically for Ringwraiths, then the ruling would have been delayed by two weeks. Since the ruling was implemented immediately then the ruling is not specific to Ringwraiths and the game would work the same even without that ruling as long as you had the same interpretation (i.e., the interpretation that a site in play is "available."). Given that we know the correct interpretation, the rules do not prevent a character from being played as a new company at a site that is already in play for a Ringwraith's company.

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From: ich...@spamblock.net (Ichabod)
Subject: [MECCG] Rulings Monday
Date: 1997/11/17
Message-ID: <ichabod-1711972338420001@dialin1046.cstone.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 290379002
Organization: Church of the SubGenius
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc

Hey y'all,

Rulings for the Middle-earth: Collectible Card Game fall into two categories
now. First are those which cover ambiguous situations, and those rulings
take effect immediately. Second are those which reverse previous rulings,
introduce new rulings on non-ambiguous situations, and errata. These rulings
will not take effect in tournament play for two to four weeks.

Every other Monday, all rulings of the second type, made in the past two
weeks, will be announced. Also, with each announcement will come a list
of rulings which are effective starting that Monday.

Announced Rulings [effective 12/1/97]

No Escape from My Magic, Card Erratum: Change "Playable on any faction in
play" to "Playable on any unique faction in play."

Ringwraiths may not move from a non-Darkhaven site to another non-Darkhaven
site unless they are using Dwar Unleashed. This means a Ringwraith may not
move to Under-deeps sites that do not have a Darkhaven for a surface site.

Effective Rulings [effective today, 11/17/97]

Removing the site of origin and resetting to hand size are simultaneous
actions, and they are the last actions in any movement/hazard phase. This
means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.

Some hazard permanent-events allow you to tap or discard them for an effect,
and this does not count against the hazard limit unless specified otherwise on
the card.

Rules Erratum: Attacks keyed to Darkhavens are detainment.

Gates of Morning discards hazard environments when it resolves, even if Peril
Returned is in play.

Iron Shield of Old: Add "Shield."

If you play a Ringwraith at a non-Darkhaven site where there is a non-
Ringwraith company, one of the companies must move that turn. If both
companies are still there at the end of the movement/hazard phae, discard
the non-Ringwraith company.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien, www.cstone.net/~ichabod/, ich...@cstone.net
Assistant Editor, ICE Me:CCG Official Netrep
"Home isa where you hanga your hat!" -Dr. Emilio Lizardo
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Konrad Klar
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Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

CDavis7M wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:28 pm Yes, as long as the character is played as a new company under General Influence and not into Ren's company under Ren's direct influence.
Why under General Influence?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Because that way the character is not in the Ringwraith's company. If the character is played under the Ringwraith's DI then they would be in the same company, a company composition violation.
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Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I was unsure whether there is explicit limitation.
Potentially more than one character may be played in the same organization phase.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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