Council of Elrond

Hi everyone,
I'm somewhat confused. I recently read this in the Ruling Digest:

CoE weekly Rulings/Clarifications 1 wrote:6. The was a question regarding the playability of a minion One Ring with a hero company and whether it’s +1 corruption to all characters in the company would be in effect.

***Wim generously researched and wrote:»-You can test for it: ‘normal requirements to play’ ask for a gold ring and the right test only.-You would indeed not suffer the extra 1 cp, as all bonuses and special abilities are ignored. »

But, according to the CRF:

Rulings by Term, MELE vs. METW wrote:Hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources. Note that a Fallen-wizard may play special ring items regardless of the alignment of the gold ring item tested.

Is it really possible to play the minion version of The One Ring in a hero company (and vice versa)? Until now, it was my understanding that a hero player cannot put into play a special minion ring after testing a hero gold ring (only FWs can do this).

It doesn't work. The CoE is wrong. There are many CoE rulings that are wrong. They often didn't bother to check the CRF and never checked the ICE rulings.

ICE Digest 54
>OK, I'm now confused. Minions can play Hero Items for 1/2 MP and they
>can't use the abilities of the item, how does that differ from playing
>a hero ring w/ Black Rain.
Minions can't play hero rings from minion resources. Its always been
that way. That's why it is so hard for a minion to play the hero
One Ring. Hero items cannot fulfill conditions for minion resources,
at least for minions.

It goes the other way, a wizard player cannot play the minion one ring using a hero gold ring. Black Rain doesn't work either. I believe an influence attempt is the only way.

Magic Ring of Enigma wrote:Magic Ring. Playable only with a Gold Ring and after a test indicates a Magic Ring. Gives the bearer sage skill. If the bearer is already a sage, he mayto use a Palantír. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.

One of conditions of Magic Ring of Enigma is a Gold Ring item.

According to:

Hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources. Note that a Fallen-wizard may play special ring items regardless of the alignment of the gold ring item tested.

this condition cannot by satisfied by a hero Gold Ring item, unless player is Fallen-wizard.

Ok, thanks for the quick responses.

BTW. I am curious about origin of CRF entry for Black Rain.
In my copy of CRF dated on 2001 the entry is not present.
Is it from ICE?

As an errata it does not require explanation.
As a ruling it is wrong. Special Item ring checks for presence of Gold Ring item, but not for alignment of event that caused its playing. Moreover Black Rain is not an item.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:32 am BTW. I am curious about origin of CRF entry for Black Rain.
In my copy of CRF dated on 2001 the entry is not present.
Is it from ICE?

As an errata it does not require explanation.
As a ruling it is wrong. Special Item ring checks for presence of Gold Ring item, but not for alignment of event that caused its playing. Moreover Black Rain is not an item.

Konrad, did you know that your so-called "CRF" is not an actual CRF and that it is not from ICE? It should be obvious that it is not from ICE if it is dated 2001. The last version of the CRF issued by ICE was version 15 dated to May 29, 1999. CRF 15 was actually issued a second time with minor changes.

And your CRF has been been tampered with? I bet it was the old CoE. They gave a wrong ruling on Black Rain and maybe they tampered with your CRF. I know that there are other tampered CRF's on the Internet.

I've already gone over several of the CoE Netrep's incorrect rulings on Black Rain but I'll exclude the Fallen Wizard discussion here to keep it short.

The rule in the real CRF from ICE states "hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources." This rule says "conditions." Not just conditions for playing the card, not just active conditions, but all conditions.

Black Rain has an effect: "according to the result, you may play an item from your hand with the sage." Having an item card in your hand is a "condition" for the action of moving the item card from your hand to the play-area with the sage. A hero item card cannot be a condition for playing an item card. This is not "targeting" the card in your hand. Of course not, the card is not yet in play. But it is a "condition." And ICE Netrep Ichabod ruled the same.

My thanks to pioneer Martin Toggweiler for asking many of the tough questions.

ICE wrote:From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 52
Date: 1998/03/05
Organization: Iron Crown Enterprises

These are official rulings made on the METW mailing list. To subscribe to
the mailing list send "subscribe metw <your email>" to list...@tower.ml.org.

From: Martin Toggweiler <mtogg...@compuserve.com>

>1) I'm pretty sure a Minion player could play a hero ring using *Black
>Rain*, less sure if a FW could do it. Since *Black Rain* doesn't target
>the ring or the site, but just the sage, I see no problem. Ichabod, please
>confirm or refute this.

A minion player could not play a hero ring using Black Rain. It is not
a question of targeting, but of conditions.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email
Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep
http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod/ Alternate Official Me:CCG Website
------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------

ICE wrote:From: ich...@spamblock.cstone.net (Craig Ichabod O'Brien)
Subject: [MECCG] Rules Digest 54
Date: 1998/03/09
Organization: Iron Crown Enterprises

>OK, I'm now confused. Minions can play Hero Items for 1/2 MP and they
>can't use the abilities of the item, how does that differ from playing
>a hero ring w/ Black Rain.

Minions can't play hero rings from minion resources. Its always been
that way. That's why it is so hard for a minion to play the hero
One Ring. Hero items cannot fulfill conditions for minion resources,
at least for minions.

------- "The Crossing-guard of Mordor" -------
Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien Remove spamblock to reply by email
Assistant Editor, Iron Crown Enterprises Me:CCG Official Netrep
http://www.cstone.net/~ichabod/ Alternate Official Me:CCG Website
------- "We shall pick up an existence by its frogs" -Fort -------

I do not think that Hoard Well-searched is condition of item played in result.
Otherwise it could not be used to play hero items.
Hoard Well-searched causes non-mandatory action " A minor or major item may be played.".
The item does not check for Hoard Well-searched.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:31 pm Konrad, did you know that your so-called "CRF" is not an actual CRF and that it is not from ICE? It should be obvious that it is not from ICE if it is dated 2001. The last version of the CRF issued by ICE was version 15 dated to May 29, 1999. CRF 15 was actually issued a second time with minor changes.

All texts in the document containing phrase like:
"[Effective 8/27/98]" are not later than from 98.
Document itself is dated on 2001. This is compilation (tampered, or not) CRF and texts of inserts.

The last version of the CRF issued by ICE was version 15 dated to May 29, 1999.

Than maybe CRF is just not up to date, not necessarily tampered.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:28 am I do not think that Hoard Well-searched is condition of item played in result.
Otherwise it could not be used to play hero items.

Of course Hoard Well-searched is not an item, but Black Rain is not too.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:31 pm The rule in the real CRF from ICE states "hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources." This rule says "conditions." Not just conditions for playing the card, not just active conditions, but all conditions.

How about A More Evil Hour when hero item worth 3 MPs or more has been played by opponent?
How about Gollum's ability if minion The One Ring is at the same non-Haven site as Gollum?

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:28 am I do not think that Hoard Well-searched is condition of item played in result.
Otherwise it could not be used to play hero items.
Hoard Well-searched causes non-mandatory action " A minor or major item may be played.".
The item does not check for Hoard Well-searched.

Hoard Well-searched cannot be used to play hero items. Hoard Well-searched can be used to play a card but it has a condition that the card be a minor item or a major item. A hero item may not be used for the "minor/major" condition of minion resources Hoard Well-searched.

Also, Hoard Well-searched does not have a non-mandatory action. If Hoard Well-searched is resolved, then the minor/major item must be played at resolution because of the rule that "a short-event's effects are implemented; then, it is discarded." If no item is played when Hoard Well-searched resolves, then Hoard Well-searched had no effect and so it's play does not meet "Legal Play of Cards."

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:28 am Document itself is dated on 2001.

So then it is not from ICE. There were only a few changes at the end of the game's life. It shouldn't really matter though the CvCC errata was overlooked.

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:07 am

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:31 pm The rule in the real CRF from ICE states "hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items may not be used as conditions for hero resources." This rule says "conditions." Not just conditions for playing the card, not just active conditions, but all conditions.

How about A More Evil Hour when hero item worth 3 MPs or more has been played by opponent?
How about Gollum's ability if minion The One Ring is at the same non-Haven site as Gollum?

Look up the CRF entry stating "hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources" and check the header. You'll see there's no issue. Context is important.