A few random rule questions

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Anth
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:11 pm

Can you tap a character to use an item, if that character is not in the company currently moving during the movement hazard phase? That is, the character is untapped and able to use the item, but he is in a different company. Similarly to how you use marvels told by a sage not in that current company.


Alone and unadvised, does it count the character himself in adding the number of characters in the company when corruption checks are made? So if it's just one character with alone and unadvised on him and one other character in the company, do you modify the roll by 1 or by 2?


Is crown of flowers a way to preserve an event out for longer? For example star of high hope. Or does crown of flowers used with star of high hope discarded at the next long event phase when normally star of high hope would be discarded? It's powerful if it keeps it out, otherwise it's a very weak card it seems to me.

How does crown of flowers work with short events? Or are they not able to be used with it?
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Anth wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:31 am Can you tap a character to use an item, if that character is not in the company currently moving during the movement hazard phase? That is, the character is untapped and able to use the item, but he is in a different company. Similarly to how you use marvels told by a sage not in that current company.
It helps to mention the specific card in case there is anything else at issue. But as far as the rules, there is no rule that restricts how resources (cards or effects of items in play, etc.) are used based on which company is taking their M/H phase. Most items are limited to being helpful for a specific company. Some items do not mention the "company" specifically but there is also a clarification to the rules in the CRF: "In order to cancel an attack or to directly affect an attack, the character doing so must be in the company facing the attack. Note that the region/site type a hazard creature was keyed to can be affected otherwise." So this is a restriction on Star-glass, etc.
Anth wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:31 am Alone and unadvised, does it count the character himself in adding the number of characters in the company when corruption checks are made? So if it's just one character with alone and unadvised on him and one other character in the company, do you modify the roll by 1 or by 2?
The character with AaU is in his own company. If there are 2 character as you ask, then you give +2.
Anth wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:31 am Is crown of flowers a way to preserve an event out for longer? For example star of high hope. Or does crown of flowers used with star of high hope discarded at the next long event phase when normally star of high hope would be discarded? It's powerful if it keeps it out, otherwise it's a very weak card it seems to me.

How does crown of flowers work with short events? Or are they not able to be used with it?
There is another card called "Echo of All Joys" that prolongs long-events. Crown of Flowers does not prolong events. The idea behind Crown of Flowers is that you can have a Doors of Night style hazard section while still being able to play cards that rely on Gates of Morning. For instance, you can have Doors boosting the effects of hazards while your Star of High Hope boosts your characters to offset Doors.

I don't think there is any issue with Crown of Flowers and short-events. The only issue is that the card must be "played with" Crown of Flowers. So it cannot "target" or be "played with" some other card. Some people thought that they could play Fireworks with Crown of Flowers and then use Twilight to cancel Crown and remove Fireworks. This doesn't work because Crown of Flowers is first played in the play area and then Fireworks is played on/with a Sage -- so there is no possibility of Fireworks being played with Crown of Flowers, which is not with the Sage. This means that Crown doesn't work with Fifteen Birds or The Sun Unveiled, but it would work with other Gates-based short events.
Anth
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:11 pm

Very helpful thank you!
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I do not see any problem with Free to Choose with Crown of Flowers.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

I think it's the same issue and it doesn't work. The player cannot take an action unless the game allows it -- no cheating.

Crown of Flowers is played into the play area, but not with a company or any other card. Crown of Flowers states "You can play one resource from your hand with this card." Free to Choose states "Playable on an Item." Crown of Flowers is not an item. Free to Choose is not playble with Crown of Flowers because it is not an item. If Free to Choose is played on an item, the player cannot pick up Crown of Flowers and move the card to be placed with Free to Choose. No cheating! The player can't just take any action they want.

Crown of Flowers works with non-targeted events.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I see the same (not) issue with Flies and Spiders. The card is playable on character and with rescue site.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:57 pm I see the same (not) issue with Flies and Spiders. The card is playable on character and with rescue site.
The prisoner cards are different because they have extra rules. Flies and Spiders is "playable on a character" but it is NOT played "with" the rescue site. Instead, Flies and Spiders says that the character is "taken prisoner" and there are paragraphs of rules about taking prisoners in MEDM. From those rules, Flies and Spiders and the character are moved away from the company and put to the side, with the character under Flies and Spiders. And then a site card is placed with Flies and Spiders.

Flies and Spiders is not played with the rescue site. The rescue site is played with Flies and Spiders as part of resolving the "taken prisoner" effect.

---------

There are no special rules for Crown of Flowers. A card cannot both be "played with" Crown of Flowers yet also somehow "played on" a different card. Only non-targeted cards that are not "played on/with" a card work with Crown of Flowers.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Dark Minions wrote:Additionally, the player playing the hazard host must take a site card from his
location deck and place it with the hazard host—this is called the rescue site.
Playing a rescue site is governed by the following rules.
[...]
If a rescue site is not available within these rules, the hazard host cannot be played!
Underline mine.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:21 pm
Dark Minions wrote:Additionally, the player playing the hazard host must take a site card from his
location deck and place it with the hazard host—this is called the rescue site.
Playing a rescue site is governed by the following rules.
[...]
If a rescue site is not available within these rules, the hazard host cannot be played!
Underline mine.
Right. The player checks their location deck and if a rescue site is not available, they cannot play the card. But the rescue site is only played with the hazard host as part of resolving the prisoner effect after both cards are moved to the site, as stated in the rules you quoted.
Location Deck.PNG
Location Deck.PNG (27.56 KiB) Viewed 1448 times
----------

It's possible that a player might take actions that are outside of the game. There are two schools of thought. Either an action outside of the game did not actually happen within the game (and so it did not happen). In this case Flies and Spiders was never played in the game because it's not within the game. Similar to revealing a site card with improper movement. It just never happened.

Or the player might immediately lose the game--no cheating. I don't think this works well for MECCG at all but many games give an immediately loss for invalid play.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

"Cannot be played" is not the same as "does not resolve".

For Long Grievous Siege only presence of eligible site card in Location Deck is condition. Placing the site card with the Long Grievous Siege is part of main effect. I.e. player has time between declaration and resolution to decide which from eligible site cards will be used.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:43 pm "Cannot be played" is not the same as "does not resolve".
I agree. If the player did not check their location decks first and they tried to play a prisoner-taking hazard but then could not find the site, it's not the case that the card doesn't resolve (and then is discarded). Instead, its the case that they card could not have been played and it is returned to the players hand. Same as if a player mistakenly tries to play Assassin keyed to Free-domain.
Konrad Klar wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:43 pm For Long Grievous Siege only presence of eligible site card in Location Deck is condition. Placing the site card with the Long Grievous Siege is part of main effect. I.e. player has time between declaration and resolution to decide which from eligible site cards will be used.
I 100% disagree. The site card for Long Grevious Siege must be available for it to be played and it must be known at declaration, not later at resolution.

Taking a border-hold site card and putting it with Long Grevious Siege has nothing to do with the game and gives no advantage to the resource player. In fact, as a baseline, the resource player would want to have more options or more sites in the location deck. Hence why sites are discarded after they are tapped. Placing the border-hold is a restriction on the player from taking certain actions.

The main effect (reason why the card is played) of Long Grevious Siege is returning any faction played at that site to its owners hand (hopefully your opponent) and then making that site gain and attack and making the influence attempt harder. Now your opponent has lost MP from the faction and while their faction is not straight up discarded, they are going to have to jump though 2 hoops to play it again, not even counting the movement back. That's the main effect.

Having the appropriate border-hold to place with Long Grevious Siege is a restriction on the player against using that same site for Long Grevious Siege again and a restriction on the player that prevents them from using the site for other purposes. In MECCG, the border-hold the price/cost and placing the border-hold is payment of that cost. Because placing the border-hold is a cost and not the main effect, the player cannot play Long Grevious Siege unless that have the border-hold to play. According to the timing rules on paying the "price of an action" on page 49 of The Wizard Companion, the border-hold must be selected at declaration.
From: "Van Norton" <vno...@mindspring.com>
Subject: [MECCG} Rules Digest 558
Date: 1999/03/01
Message-ID: <7bfc2p$6ht$1@camel15.mindspring.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 450176541
X-Server-Date: 2 Mar 1999 00:40:57 GMT
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.misc

MECCG Rules Digest 558

>From: Florian Kugler <flor...@gmx.net>
>Subject: Re: Long Grievous Siege [VAN]
>
>I have a question for this card: Do I *have* to place a Border-hold with
>the card, or may I choose not to do so? That is, may I play this card on
>a faction where no appropriate BH is available (e.g. Orcs of Moria)?

You must place a borderhold with this card. If no borderhold is
available, then that faction may not be used with Long Grievous Siege.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

1.
If goal is: to prove that a card played on cannot be at the same time played with, then you have found a solution.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:31 pm It's possible that a player might take actions that are outside of the game. There are two schools of thought. Either an action outside of the game did not actually happen within the game (and so it did not happen). In this case Flies and Spiders was never played in the game because it's not within the game. Similar to revealing a site card with improper movement. It just never happened.

Or the player might immediately lose the game--no cheating. I don't think this works well for MECCG at all but many games give an immediately loss for invalid play.
Worth the cost.

2.
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:28 pm The main effect (reason why the card is played) of Long Grevious Siege is returning any faction played at that site to its owners hand (hopefully your opponent) and then making that site gain and attack and making the influence attempt harder. Now your opponent has lost MP from the faction and while their faction is not straight up discarded, they are going to have to jump though 2 hoops to play it again, not even counting the movement back. That's the main effect.

Having the appropriate border-hold to place with Long Grevious Siege is a restriction on the player against using that same site for Long Grevious Siege again and a restriction on the player that prevents them from using the site for other purposes. In MECCG, the border-hold the price/cost and placing the border-hold is payment of that cost. Because placing the border-hold is a cost and not the main effect, the player cannot play Long Grevious Siege unless that have the border-hold to play. According to the timing rules on paying the "price of an action" on page 49 of The Wizard Companion, the border-hold must be selected at declaration.
Main effect of a card is what the card makes when it is resolved.
For No Strangers at this Time it is, among others, that the site never untaps for you. Whether it is wanted or unwanted.
The same for placing off to the side [-me_bh-] card with LGS, when it is resolved. Conditions, that a card must be present in Location Deck and that the same card must be placed off to the side, preclude each other.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Konrad Klar wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:42 am Main effect of a card is what the card makes when it is resolved.
This is misleading and doesn't actually explain what the main effect is.

The phrase "main effect" comes from the "Actions and Active and Passive Conditions" section of the Rules Annotations in the Wizards Companion. The rules annotations describe the "main effect" of an action as opposed to the "price" of the action (the restriction to the player invoking the action). The main effect of a card is different from the price paid to play the card. The term "main" refers to the importance of the effect to the player. The term "price" refers to something expended to endured a condition of achieving a desired objective (the main effect). A restriction to the player invoking the action is the price to be paid for invoking the main effect. These words have meaning that should be recognized.

The player's location deck has a finite number of border-holds in it. Placing a border-hold with Long Grievous Siege expends that border-hold and restricts the player from placing the border-hold for some other purpose. Placing the border-hold is a "price" of playing Long Grievous Siege. Placing the border-hold is not the "main effect" because it is not a desired effect. There is no reason in MECCG why the player would want to have one less border-hold in their location deck.

For Long Grievous Siege, the returning of the faction to its owner's hand, the -5 to influence attempts, and the additional automatic attack are the player's objectives when playing this card. These effects are important ("Main") to the player's victory as they can remove their opponent's marshalling points from play and make it more difficult for the opponent to replay their faction. There are reasons in MECCG why the player wants (desires) these effects.

This is the difference between "main effect" and "price." Long Grievous Siege cannot be played unless the price of placing a border-hold with it is paid. On the other hand, Long Grievous Siege can be played even if there is no faction to remove to their opponent's hand as that is not a price.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

I want to provoke my opponent to play the Chance of Being Lost to redirect my company to Bree and then to play Tidings of Bold Spies. And this is my motivation to play Long Grievous Siege on Orcs of Angmar and placing Bree site card off the side.

EDIT: "out of the side" > "off to the side"
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4345
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

The Lidless Eye: All Thought Bent upon It
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U

Resource: Short-event

Sage only. Playable during the site phase on an untapped sage at a site where Information is playable. Tap the sage and the site. Search your play deck and choose an item you must reveal to your opponent. Place this item in your hand and reshuffle your play deck. The sage makes a corruption check.
Is not illogical to expect from the card that its active condition would be both untapped sage and tapping the sage?
I know that tapping sage and site may not be most desired effects, but what if the card would fizzle?
Should a site and a sage be tapped anyway, even if main effect has not been performed?
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”