Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold, and Rhosgobel

[Konrad Klar]

Can Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold force Fallen Radagast player's company to use minion version Rhosgobel?

In other words:
Texts of Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold mean that if for a given site exists a card site of type , company must use minion version of the site card.
or
Texts of Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold mean that if for a given site exists a card site of type , company may not use hero version of the site card.
or
(something else)

[CDavis7M]

I'm a bit confused and maybe an example would help.

But to start from the beginning, Plotting Ruin and Heart Grown Cold are talking about the sites that the player is using, right? If they were going to use a hero haven, they must use a minion site of that hero haven instead. If they were going to use a hero free-hold, they must the minion site card for that free-hold instead.

So I don't know about checking whether a given site type exists (as I think you are asking). The player just looks at the site they would be using and they might need to use the minion site instead.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm a bit confused too.
If Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold are in play in organization phase, how a company attempting to move to Rivendell could be going to use hero Rivendell card?

[CDavis7M]

I'm a bit confused too.
If Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold are in play in organization phase, how a company attempting to move to Rivendell could be going to use hero Rivendell card?

To be specific, let's say a Fallen-Wizard player has played Plotting Ruin and Heart Grown Cold is in play. They have a non-overt company at hero Weathertop and they want to move to Rivendell. The White Hand rules say "Fallen-wizard's non-overt companies must use hero sites for sites that are not Ruins & Lairs." Rivendell is not a Ruins & Lairs so they must use hero Rivendell, which is a Haven, according to this rule. But Plotting Ruin and Heart Grown Cold both state that the player "must use minion site cards for Hero Havens". So instead of using hero haven Rivendell according to the rule, they use Minion free-hold Rivendell because of the card effect.

If some other site card in play (not the one the fallen-wizard player's company will be using) has its site type changed, that doesn't affect the site type of the card that the company would be using.

[Konrad Klar]

I got it. Thanks.
Sounds like:
"For some types of sites player must use minion version of the site card instead hero version of the site card".
i.e. not affecting of use of potential FW versions.

[CDavis7M]

I got it. Thanks.
Sounds like:
"For some types of sites player must use minion version of the site card instead hero version of the site card".
i.e. not affecting of use of potential FW versions.

I guess it goes back to this other rule:

Sites - There are four Fallen-wizard site cards: Isengard, The White
Towers, Rhosgobel, and Deep Mines. These site cards have a light
gray background. Unless stated otherwise on a card, a Fallen-wizard
player may use these sites instead of the hero/minion versions.

Plotting Ruin and Heart Grown Cold do not talk about Fallen-wizard site cards, only hero site cards.

[Konrad Klar]

Unless stated otherwise on a card

Plotting Ruin, Heart Grown Cold are the cards. Fortress of the Towers is a card and forbids opponents using FW version of The White Towers.

[Bandobras Took]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but this would be a case where ICE contradicted themselves:

When rules and non-site cards refer to Havens and Darkhavens, they apply instead to your Wizardhavens.

Strictly speaking, when either of those cards refer to hero havens, they by rule instead refer to Wizardhavens.

I have to imagine, though, that the intent was to actually have the cards refer strictly to non-FW sites, and they forgot that they made it impossible to do so.

The intent of both cards is that when you would otherwise use the hero version of the site, you must instead use the minion version of the site. Neither card will affect Wizardhavens, whether those are natural (e.g. FW Rhosgobel) or created by a card (Chambers), as those are not hero Havens in the sense required by the two cards, nor are they any longer their original site type once a haven-making card has been played on them.

[Konrad Klar]

Strictly speaking, when either of those cards refer to hero havens, they by rule instead refer to Wizardhavens.

Strictly speaking: no. They are distinct terms. "Hero haven" is a hero site that has type of . Rules and text of cards that refer to "Haven" for FW player refer to Wizardhaven instead. E.g. cc from Lure of Senses on FW character at Rivendell will not be triggered (unless Rivendell is coincidentally the player's Wizardhaven).

I have to imagine, though, that the intent was to actually have the cards refer strictly to non-FW sites, and they forgot that they made it impossible to do so.

Such intents exist and, for reasons explained above, it is possible to realize such intents.
E.g.

Agents may not move to any version of a hero Haven, unless they have a special
ability allowing them to.