Items effects on Ringwraith's company

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Theo
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MELE wrote:A Ringwraith may carry items (including rings) but may not use them (i.e., an item has no effect on a Ringwraith’s company or on his attributes and abilities).
The underline portion is what I'm curious about. What are item effects on a company? Some exemplars:
Scroll of Isildur: No; the effect is on a ring test in the company.
Goblin Earth-plumb: No; the effect is on under-deeps movement rolls required by the company.
Orc-draughts: No; the effect is on each character in the company. (still wouldn't effect the Ringwraith individually)
Strange Rations (alternative effect): Yes; the effect is an allowance for the "company to play"

But is that really it? Strange Rations alternative effect? (Can't the Strange Rations be fed to the mounts just as well as Orc-draughts? :wink:)
Last edited by Theo on Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Konrad Klar
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The One Ring?
Or "every character in company" still does not count as "company".
Or any activity/state that refers to a company counts as activity/state on which an item carried by Ringwraith has no effect.
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Theo
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I would put The One Ring in the same category as Orc-draughts.
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Konrad Klar
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Not the same category, because Orc-draughts does not have any effect (beside presence and 1CP) until discarded. Can Ringwraith discard it for effect? Does it constitute "using"?
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Theo
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Regardless, a non-Ringwraith character in the Ringwraith's company could discard it.

But I had the impression that "i.e." meant that what followed was the entire scope of what "use" meant in this situation.
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Konrad Klar
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Proposal is:
"Any activity or state that involves a Ringwraith's company as whole or entity associated with the company is scope of the effect on a Ringwraith’s company."

P.S.
Minion The Arkenstone.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:13 am
MELE wrote:A Ringwraith may carry items (including rings) but may not use them (i.e., an item has no effect on a Ringwraith’s company or on his attributes and abilities).
The underline portion is what I'm curious about. What are item effects on a company?
A "company" is simply a group of one or more character cards. I see no basis for divorcing the concept of "company" from the character cards themselves. I also don't see any reason from the rule to make a distinction between effects on attributes of the company and effects on abilities or actions by the company. Any effect that modifies the attributes of characters in the company or that modifies the company's ability to take actions is an effect on the company.
Companies.png
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Theo wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:13 am Some exemplars:
Scroll of Isildur: No; the effect is on a ring test in the company.
Goblin Earth-plumb: No; the effect is on under-deeps movement rolls required by the company.
Orc-draughts: No; the effect is on each character in the company. (still wouldn't effect the Ringwraith individually)
Strange Rations (alternative effect): Yes; the effect is an allowance for the "company to play"
Scroll of Isildur: Scroll's effect is a modifier to a ring test dice roll that affects a ring item in play and maybe one in hand. This is not a modifier to a character or a group of characters. Affecting the items of the company does not affect the company itself.

Goblin Earth-plumb: The RW may not declare movement to an adjacent under-deeps site in the first place. But in general, the company has the ability to move to a site and "moving" is a game-status of companies in MECCG. Affecting the check for the company's movement attempt affects the company's ability to move. Affecting the abilities of the company seems to affect the company but the plumb affects the roll and not the ability itself. Either way, a RW's company is not rolling. Well, maybe they technically roll on the way back up.

Orc-draughts: Affecting the prowess of characters in the company affects a group of one or more characters, which is what a company is. Affecting the attributes of the characters affects the company.

Strange Rations: Affects the company's ability to place region cards for movement. Affecting the abilities of the company affects the company.

As for ICE, I see an offhand mention of Scroll used with Ringwraiths to test for The One but nothing specific.

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Theo wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 7:35 am But I had the impression that "i.e." meant that what followed was the entire scope of what "use" meant in this situation.
That's one way "i.e." might be used but it's not what "i.e." means. It stands for Id est -- that is. It is a way to restate what has been said in a different way. It's similar but different as it is being restated for a purpose. And this doesn't exclude other similar but different restatements. The restatement is not the "entire scope" of the original statement. In fact, doesn't it necessarily has a slightly different scope by virtue of being a restatement?

To me, "use" of an item in the main statement sounds like an activity performed by the Ringwraith. But the "i.e." statement restates use in a way to cover more passive, receptive use.
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Theo
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I notice several issues with points that you bring up. I like how you at least notice one of those yourself by the end of Goblin Earth-plumb. To try to keep this thread on topic, I'll instead focus on addressing your key point:
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:55 pmAffecting the prowess of characters in the company affects a group of one or more characters, which is what a company is.
I don't agree. The set of Dwarves in play is also a group of characters, but that doesn't make them a company, nor are effects on them effects on a company. I refer readers to my previous disagreement with your use of company:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3738&p=37149&hilit=british#p37149

My bottom line: for MECCG, it does not seem accurate to necessitate an effect on individuals as an effect on group entities for which they are members. For example, if there is a Dwarf in a Ringwraith's company, the Dwarf should still be affected by The Arkenstone [Minion]. I think we can lead ourselves astray when we get lost in considering the ripples of effects: surely the group entity is affected, just as the players controlling Dwarves are affected. That doesn't mean the effect is on the players. It is on Dwarves! The effect is to increase mind. The players do not have minds to increase. :wink:
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CDavis7M
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The rules define exactly what a company is. A company is just a group of individuals. This is also the plain meaning of the term. A "company" not some abstract game concept. Hazards played against a company are played against a group of characters. Cards played on a company are played with a group of characters.

You can disagree about what a company is but, let's not derail this thread with ideas having no basis in the rules.

By the way, the definition of "use" is helpful in understanding the statement in RINGWRAITH EFFECTS including that term.
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Konrad Klar
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· Any ring in the Ringwraith's company at the beginning of the end-of-turn phase is automatically tested. Any ring test
in a Ringwraith's company has a modification of -2.
Is not (at least) second sentence affecting a company?
CDavis7M wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:55 pm Scroll of Isildur: Scroll's effect is a modifier to a ring test dice roll that affects a ring item in play and maybe one in hand. This is not a modifier to a character or a group of characters. Affecting the items of the company does not affect the company itself.
Maybe. But affecting ring test (roll itself) is not affecting a ring (itself).

Goblin Earth-plumb: would be acquired by Ringwriath in extreme ways.
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Theo
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CDavis7M wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 4:32 am The rules define exactly what a company is. A company is just a group of individuals. This is also the plain meaning of the term. A "company" not some abstract game concept. Hazards played against a company are played against a group of characters. Cards played on a company are played with a group of characters.

You can disagree about what a company is but, let's not derail this thread with ideas having no basis in the rules.
You have (deliberately?) missed my point: just because company is a group of characters does not mean any group of characters is a company. If you need me to cite here (note the underlined portions absent from your earlier use):
MELE wrote:Company: A coordinated group of characters as designated by their player.
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CDavis7M
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Theo wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:56 am You have (deliberately?) missed my point: just because company is a group of characters does not mean any group of characters is a company. If you need me to cite here (note the underlined portions absent from your earlier use):
MELE wrote:Company: A coordinated group of characters as designated by their player.
I checked the definition of "group" and I think I'm OK.
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