Council of Elrond

When is a time for discarding the items?
I think that it is when attempt is declared. Other actions that affect the attempt (or unrelated, but otherwise legal) may be declared in response, when once they are resolved and executed, there is nothing to do (and no time for anything to do) other than die roll.

There is no situation where this matters. Discarding is a condition regardless of timing.

But I'm also confused as to why influencing would be any different. What's the real point of the question?

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:29 pm Discarding is a condition regardless of timing.

Condition o what?
Character may attempt to influence Dragon faction without discarding major and/or greater item.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:29 pm But I'm also confused as to why influencing would be any different. What's the real point of the question?

Different from what?

Scenario:
Warrior with prowess of 6 and 0 of unused DI declares attempt against Scorba Roused.
Threats is declared in response.
Ire of the East on Threats is declared in response.

Player estimates that without discarding of some item the attempt will probably fail. Or he estimates that a discarding of some item will be probably wasteful.
If the player is able to postpone his decision (to discard major/greater item or not), then he is able to change the decision. If the decision (and discarding) takes place at declaration, the he has nothing to decide later in the question.

EDIT: "Scatha" > "Scorba"
EDIT2: Forgot to remove "Times Are Evil on-guard is revealed (declared and resolved prior the chain)" Needless complication.

The modification from discarding an item is separate from the declared influence attempt. The check is a dice roll attempting to play the faction and the modification is to that dice roll. The item must be discarded to get the modification. Timing seems irrelevant though I don't see why it wouldn't work similar to other effects activated by item discard.

Also, I don't think the scenario makes sense. Ire of the East can always be played and the item could always be discarded. In response that is.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:31 am Also, I don't think the scenario makes sense. Ire of the East can always be played and the item could always be discarded. In response that is.

So items may also be discarded in response to Threats? Right?

Discarding an item works just like declaration Gifts as Given of Old?
OK.

A Roused Dragon is a faction card. It's not an event. The timing rules for events do not apply. Gifts Given is an event. It works similar but its not the same. The rules are different. A faction is not declaring and resolving its text like an event does.

A faction card requires an influence check and so the rules on dice rolls and influence apply. The requirements are that the modifiers be made before the roll, but of course the player is allowed to affect the roll. "A required or declared dice roll is an action and can be the target of another action or effect declared later in the same chain of effects."

The player can attempt to play Smaug Roused, and play Threats for that attempt. If Ire of the East is declared in response to cancel Threats, the player can still discard an item to get the modifier.

Discarding the item is not a declared/resolved effect of the faction card itself. It's not an event.

I could probably repeat the same thing in 2 more ways.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm I could probably repeat the same thing in 2 more ways.

No problem.
If it may lead to enlightening me or someone.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:45 pm Discarding the item is not a declared/resolved effect of the faction card itself. It's not an event.

I realize.
Tapping a character on which When You Know More is played to support some influence attempt is not event too. But this happens in chain of effects, in response to declaration of the attempt, just like declaration of Gifts as Given of Old?
How different is discarding a major/major item to modify influence attempt against faction?

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:29 pm Discarding is a condition regardless of timing.

OK. Is condition of modifier (if I understand). But question is still about timing.

Is discarding an item something that a player actively decides to do, which is a restriction to that player?

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:02 pm Is discarding an item something that a player actively decides to do

Yes.

CDavis7M wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:02 pm Is discarding an item something that a player actively decides to do, which is a restriction to that player?

No.

If you want to have some effect and to have the effect you must discard some card, then the discarding is condition of the effect.
Restriction is not the same as condition.

It's true that a "restriction is not the same as a condition." But sometimes the actions that satisfy a condition are restrictions to the player that invoked that action.

If the player takes an item card from the play area and puts it into their discard pile, does that action then limit the number of times that they can put an item from their play area into the discard pile in the future?

I think so. And there's a timing rule for actions that the player invokes which have such restrictions.

OK. No splitting hair.
Necessity of fulfilling a condition restricts a player.

So when is a time to discard of items to modify influence attempt?
In response to declaration of the attempt?

Is the following scenario valid (declarations only):

1. Influence attempt against Scorba Roused is declared.
2. Gifts as Given of Old is declared.
3. Valiant Sword is discarded as condition of "+3 to influence attempt".

?

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:16 am Is the following scenario valid (declarations only):

1. Influence attempt against Scorba Roused is declared.
2. Gifts as Given of Old is declared.
3. Valiant Sword is discarded as condition of "+3 to influence attempt".

?

I don't see why not but I'm still wondering where the question came from in the first place.

Like, someone plays Ire and cancels Gifts and then Valiant Sword is discarded in response and the Ire-player complains -- what is the basis of their complaint?

The story is not based on facts. All scenarios and persons are fictional.
The story is result of my pondering about "wasteful playing a Dragon faction".
I am not complaining. I was not certain about timing of discarding of the items.