CoE Rulings Digest #118 Debate

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
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Bandobras Took
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zarathustra wrote: (12) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume that one cannot play cards and effects in response to mechanics of the game that are not created by cards and effects, such exhausting a deck?
Just a quick side note:
MELE Rules wrote:Chain of Effects: A series of actions declared in response to one another before any of them resolve.

Action: Any activity in the game (card play, a corruption check caused by Lure of the Senses, etc.). An opponent and yourself have the opportunity to declare other actions in response. Meeting active conditions and exhausting a play deck are not actions
The only activities prohibited from response are exhausting a deck and meeting active conditions. Any other activity in the game is fair for a response of declaring another action.
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Konrad Klar
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Putting it in simple way: if there is no declaration, there is no response.
If effect (main or side) is result of declared action, there is no chance of response.
You can respond to playing of Coancelment. You cannot respond to canceled attack.

Some actions (mainly playing card) causes declaration of other action, so you can respond to declaration of Snowstorm, you can respond to the declaration of action: "a company is returned to the site of origin", but you cannot respond to the result which is: "a company has been returned to the site of origin".
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
zarathustra
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That's a very concise and accurate summary. Thanks!
http://www.alfanos.org
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Manuel
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On my next turn during the organization phase, can these two companies join each other?

No.
Hm why wouldn't they be able to join during org phase? As long as the company composition changes are all done at the same time, I'd say it's fine.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (5) Joe Bisz asked: "Can Gothmog be placed on-guard then revealed at the minion Under-Leas?"

Only if the company faced an orc attack during the movement-hazard phase. As I'm sure you know, you cannot reveal an on guard card unless it was playable during the mh-phase.
This is clearly wrong. Minion Under-leas is a Shadow-hold. Gothmog can only be keyed to Dark-hold/domain.

The on-guard rules specifically state "if the on-guard card is a hazard creature keyed to the site." When Gothmog is played following an orc/troll attack, he is not keyed to the site.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (9) Joe Bisz asked: "When Master of Wood, Water, and Hill is played (see text below), I assume that the change in the region symbol it creates lasts until the end of the turn, such that if a company take multiple m/h phases through the same region, the region symbol is still changed? (Miguel thought so.) Is the region also considered changed for ALL of your companies, in case other companies decide to move through that changed region?"

Miguel was right. And to answer your follow-up question: yes.
Short-events without a specific duration do not last until the end of the turn. They last no longer than the end of the turn.

The answer to the follow up question is no, or at least, very unlikely. If MoWWoH were used to change the symbol on a region card or map, then the region card would have already been removed from play at the end of the M/H phase, thereby removing the effect of MoWWoH. So, if some other company used that same region card, the effect of MoWWoH would no longer apply.

If MoWWoH were used to change the symbol on a site's own site path, then the effect would last no longer than the end of the turn as long as the site were still in play. If a second company moved to that site using the site path (e.g., they moved to a Haven first and then used bridge), then they would use the path as modified by MoWWoH.

Given this, the answer to the original question is likely no, unless the company moved out and back from a Haven.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (12) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume that one cannot play cards and effects in response to mechanics of the game that are not created by cards and effects, such exhausting a deck? Examples: A) A player says it is the end of his movement hazard phase, and taps Carambor to move again (or plays a Bridge, etc.). Can the hazard player respond, such as with Skinchangers? B) Can the resource player respond to the previous example, or only with cards/effects that specifically say "end of the m/h"? C) If the resource player plays a card that says "playable at the beginning of a m/h phase", can the hazard player respond? D) If a resource player plays a card during the organization phase that creates an effect during the m/h phase, like Secret entrance, I assume that SE's effect is the first thing announced during the m/h phase, and that the hazard player may respond with hazards like Choking Shadow (that can start chains)? E) Could a hazard player really play a card like Skinchangers in response to Washed and Refreshed's effect being declared as the first action during the movement/hazard phase, given that Washed takes effect before cards are drawn? If the answer is yes, then why couldn't a hazard player always play hazards before cards are drawn?

A) Carambor taps during the end of the mh-phase. No further hazards may be played at this time – just as they may not be played after ccs from Lure of Nature.
Hazards can be played at the "End of the Movement/Hazard phase." Hazards may be played after the corruption decks from Lure of Nature are triggered. This is discussed in the CRF, in the ICE rulings, and in The Dragons Players Guide.
CRF wrote:The corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature happen at the end of the afflicted character's movement/hazard phase. Of course, the character's player can play resources to modify the corruption checks. The hazard player is allowed to play hazards in response, if the hazard player has enough hazard limit remaining. Hazards so played must directly affect the corruption checks caused by Lure of Nature. The hazard player can play no other hazards, no creature, no new corruption cards, etc.
The Dragons Players Guide discusses playing Many Sorrows Befall to cancel A Friend or Three targeting the corruption checks of Lure of Nature. This is also discussed in the ICE rulings.

If resources are played during the Movement/Hazard phase, the hazard player can respond, but they can't take back their word ("no more hazards"). Of course, no corruption or attacks can be played at "the End" since they can't be played in response. If a hazard short-event canceler can be played in response to a resource corruption check bonus, I don't see why a hazard movement stopper can't be played in response to a character's declared movement effect. But the hazard player can't say "I'm done playing hazards," and then play Incite Denizens in response to Carambor, or corruption checks, they should have just played it before.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (13) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume that once a player starts playing resources playable "at the end of the organization phase," no resources can be played for the rest of the organization unless they also have the wording "at the end of-"?"

You are correct.
There's no basis for this ruling in the rules.

The expression "At the end of the organization phase" is a condition for playing specific cards, not a restriction on other cards. Of course, those cards could have just been played before the "end." There is no time to start a new chain after the "end" so there is no problem with the timing. There is no need for this ruling.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (15) Joe Bisz asked: "These questions are about Splitting Companies. A) I have moved a
company to a haven, and I choose not to combine it with the original company there during the site phase. On my next turn during the organization phase, can these two companies join each other? If they do, must they move? Can two companies join each other, than split again, then join and split, indefinitely? B) I have played a character at a haven into his own company, bringing in a second copy of the haven since there is also an original company there. I know that I may join these two companies during the site phase. May I also join them during the organization phase?"

A) No. No. No.

B) Yes.
Besides giving the wrong answer, I think the Netrep didn't read the first question.
A) I have moved a company to a haven, and I choose not to combine it with the original company there during the site phase. On my next turn during the organization phase, can these two companies join each other?
Yes. What is the problem here? Why did the CoE Netrep say "no"? There is no restriction on joining companies during the organization phase just because they moved there last turn and chose not to combine back then.
If they do, must they move?
There is no restriction on joined companies moving. Why did the CoE Netrep say "No"?
Can two companies join each other, than split again, then join and split, indefinitely?
Technically yes? But actually no. Yes, you can change your mind between joining and splitting. But NO, there is no difference on the game from joining and splitting indefinitely because "Company composition changes that you choose to make, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken." Since no other actions can be taken, there is no difference on game play.
B) I have played a character at a haven into his own company, bringing in a second copy of the haven since there is also an original company there.
Yes. A company can have their own haven site card.
I know that I may join these two companies during the site phase. May I also join them during the organization phase?"
The CoE Netrep said "yes." But actually, "NO." The question is really asking "can I play a character, give them their own untapped haven card, and then join companies, removing a tapped having and using the untapped haven for the joined company?" And the answer is NO because "Company composition changes that you choose to make, including bringing a character into play, must all be done at the same time during the organization phase. During this time no other actions may be taken." The character can either be played with the existing company or as a new company. "When you play a character, you may place him into a company already at his arrival site or he may become a new company (consisting of one character). In the second case, you must place the arrival site card next to the character played." Placing the arrival site for a character played as their own new company is not a "company composition change." It happens after all other composition changes. After the new arrival site is placed, composition changes cannot be made. If the character wanted to join the other company then they should have been played with that company in the first place.

Of course, the company can split, leaving an untapped haven, and some of the characters can/must move.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (17) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume Horns, Horns, Horns doesn't target the factions, since no number or type (does type mean alignment?) is given? In other words, would an FW player's minion factions get shuffled back in?"

You are correct.
This ruling is wrong. Horns Horns Horns cannot affect minion factions.

There seems to be confusion over what a target is, and what The White Hand rules state. At the very least, the White Hand Rules are clear regardless of "targeting": "A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card."
White Hand Rules, Playing and Using Resource, Targeting Site and Resource Cards: change both instances of "resource card may not target/affect" to "resource event card may not target/affect."

Hero event card Horns Horn Horns may not affect (eg move) a minion resource (eg a faction).

Back to "targeting," the "type" in the CRF on targets is the type of the targeted entity (eg character, attack, etc), not alignment.
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CDavis7M
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zarathustra wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:26 pm (22) The question has arisen whether Fled into Darkness is ever revealable from an on guard position.
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Fled into Darkness can never be revealed on guard because its playability conditions do not exist during the mh-phase.
This rationale is not why Fled into Darkness cannot be revealed. The rule being reference here would never be considered because this card does not meet any of the primary conditions.

An on-guard card may be revealed when the company enters the site if it's a creature keyed to the site or a hazard that can modify the automatic-attack. Fled Into Darkness affects an individual strike and The Balrog, not the automatic-attack. And it clearly cannot be revealed in the 2nd on-guard case since there is no strike when the "company plays a card that potentially taps the site"

Therefore, there is no reason to consider whether "all targets of the card existed during the movement/hazard phase."
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