CoE Rulings Digest #118

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zarathustra
Ex Council Chairman
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:26 pm

(1) Joe Bisz asked "I have a complicated question about getting sent back to one's site of origin: Ex. During my m/h phase, let's say I move a one-character company to a site where I have a 7-character company, although it has been announced that the 7-character company will be leaving the site that turn. A) Is the 1-character company prohibited from completing the move because of company maximum requirements, or not? B) If not, then let's say he gets there, and now I do the m/h phase for the 7-character company, and that company gets hit by Snowstorm or Skin-changers, thus forcing them back to a site that would create an illegal 8-character company. What happens - can a company be effectively judged to be immune to effects that would send it back to its site of origin for the turn? Even if the answer to Question A) is Yes, I'd like to know how to resolve illegal movements that are not in the control of the resource player, but triggered by passive conditions or hazards. C) If the answer to A) is No, what if the seven-character company referred to in B) announces that it's moving to a site that would violate company composition, or that already has a character and thus would violate company size, or simply picks an illegal site in some way-since the company is now prohibited from moving onward and moving backward, what does one do with the company?"

This is actually pretty easy. You don't get sent back to site of origin until the end of all mh-phases, so both companies may try to move. If the big one gets sent back due to snowstorm, then the lone character will also be sent back later. In other words: A) No. B) No, it cannot, at least not in this way. C) If you simply make a mistake and declare movement to an illegal site (e.g., one that is too far away), then your company does not move. It is as if you did not declare a site at all.



(2) Joe Bisz asked: "For Fallen Wizards, what site type are the hero havens? For a FW
player, are cards like Bridge able to target these hero havens?"

They are hero havens. For a fallen wizard, only wizard havens count as your havens. Hence, no bridge.

(3) Joe Bisz asked: "At North American Nationals, Jonathan Yost argued that since Echoes of the Song only says "discard one stage resource" and not "from hand," he could choose to discard a stage resource card from hand and not from table. The judges were shocked, but they ruled in his favor. Is this correct? CAN the player discard a card from play if he wishes? If he has none in hand, shouldn't he at least reveal his hand to prove it-and then is he forced to discard one from play?"

I was wrong to agree with Jon at Nats. You must discard the stage card from play.

(4) Joe Bisz asked: "Does Vile Fumes remove the attack-canceling ability at Balrog havens, and any other haven effects, or does it merely turn it into a Ruins and Lairs but all of its normal haven effects still apply?"


Vile Fumes (and Nature's Revenge, in the case of wizardhavens) remove all normal haven effects. If the site card (e.g., Balrog Moria) or a card played on it (e.g., Hidden Haven) declare that attacks keyed to the site are canceled, this is not a result of the site's being a haven, but of the further special effect. Thus, Vile Fumes and Nature's Revenge do not influence these effects. In fact, changing of site type does not remove special abilities of the site.



(5) Joe Bisz asked: "Can Gothmog be placed on-guard then revealed at the minion Under-Leas?"

Only if the company faced an orc attack during the movement-hazard phase. As I'm sure you know, you cannot reveal an on guard card unless it was playable during the mh-phase.

(6) Brian Min asked: "When exactly does the effects of a Minion Arkenstone take effect? Scenario: Minion player A has minion arkenstone in play. FW Player B plays We Have Come to Kill to play Gloin. Player B is currenly using 15/20 GI. Can he bring Gloin into play?"

Mind-altering effects such as The Arkenstone (minion), Palm to Palm, and Diminish and Depart are not considered when deciding whether a character has enough direct influence to control another character being brought into play with direct influence (e.g., through We Have Come to Kill, A Chance Meeting, or during the organization phase at a site where your avatar is not present).



(7) Ben Sorenson asked: "Wondrous Maps says: "This card is used as a site card, Ruins & Lairs [R]." 1. This means that Rebuild the Town can be played on it, correct? 2. In that case, since it becomes a Border-Hold, how would Heart Grown Cold affect it? Or would it?"

After much deliberation, we rule as follows: there are 4 questions here: (a) How to deal with normal hero sites that have hero permanent events on them; (b) How to deal with special sites created by hero resources; (c) How, in particular, to deal with special sites created by hero resources which are also targets of hero resources (e.g., Wondrous Maps with Rebuild the Town); and (d) How to deal with hero sites that have been transformed into wizard-havens.

With (a) the hero permanent events are discarded, since they will otherwise be targeting a minion site. With (b) and (c), however, nothing happens. There is no site to exchange for, and so there is no exchange possible. Finally, with (d), such sites are not affected by Heart Grown Cold.



(8) Joe Bisz asked: "When Aragorn II is played in a company with Strider so as to replace him, is Aragorn played in the same state as Strider, or he is automatically played in an untapped, healed state (even if Strider was wounded or tapped)? I ask because normally when a character is played there is no provision for playing him in any other state other than unwounded and untapped."


He comes into play untapped and unwounded.


(9) Joe Bisz asked: "When Master of Wood, Water, and Hill is played (see text below), I assume that the change in the region symbol it creates lasts until the end of the turn, such that if a company take multiple m/h phases through the same region, the region symbol is still changed? (Miguel thought so.) Is the region also considered changed for ALL of your companies, in case other companies decide to move through that changed region?"

Miguel was right. And to answer your follow-up question: yes.



(10) Joe Bisz rather verbosely asked: "I know that a site goes away immediately during the site phase if characters there are removed from play. I also know that if all characters moving to a site are removed from play during the m/h phase, the new site goes away at the end of all m/h phases. Other than these rules and the rule listed in Question 11 below, I assume that if a company moves from a site and leave no one there, that site is always discarded at the end of the company's m/h, and therefore if the company moved again to a new site, then tried to move a third time back to its original starting site, this third move would be impossible (if the starting site was tapped)?"

It would indeed be impossible.



(11) Joe Bisz asked: "The rules say that "any company may declare as its new site a site already on the table. That site will remain on the table at least until the end of that company's m/h phase." Does this mean a player must NAME the site his company is going to on the table, or can a player literally say, "This company is moving to a site on table"?"

The player may be as literal as he pleases.



(12) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume that one cannot play cards and effects in response to mechanics of the game that are not created by cards and effects, such exhausting a deck? Examples: A) A player says it is the end of his movement hazard phase, and taps Carambor to move again (or plays a Bridge, etc.). Can the hazard player respond, such as with Skinchangers? B) Can the resource player respond to the previous example, or only with cards/effects that specifically say "end of the m/h"? C) If the resource player plays a card that says "playable at the beginning of a m/h phase", can the hazard player respond? D) If a resource player plays a card during the organization phase that creates an effect during the m/h phase, like Secret entrance, I assume that SE's effect is the first thing announced during the m/h phase, and that the hazard player may respond with hazards like Choking Shadow (that can start chains)? E) Could a hazard player really play a card like Skinchangers in response to Washed and Refreshed's effect being declared as the first action during the movement/hazard phase, given that Washed takes effect before cards are drawn? If the answer is yes, then why couldn't a hazard player always play hazards before cards are drawn?

A) Carambor taps during the end of the mh-phase. No further hazards may be played at this time – just as they may not be played after ccs from Lure of Nature.

B) I'm not sure what you mean. Respond to the illegal play of Skin-Changers, or to his own tapping of Carambor?

C) Are there any such cards? I'm not sure what you're asking. In any case, if the resource player uses such cards, he will be doing so in the mh-phase and thus allow his opponent a chance to respond.

D) The hazard player may respond. If course, he can respond, but not by starting a new chain. Starting a new chain is by definition not responding.

E) Who said that Washed and Refreshed takes effect before cards are drawn? See digest 112: W&R will be declared as the first chain of effects in the mh-phase.



(13) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume that once a player starts playing resources playable "at the end of the organization phase," no resources can be played for the rest of the organization unless they also have the wording "at the end of-"?"

You are correct.



(14) Joe Bisz asked: "Do cards and effects which can send a company back to a site of
origin need to start a new chain of effects?"

No.



(15) Joe Bisz asked: "These questions are about Splitting Companies. A) I have moved a
company to a haven, and I choose not to combine it with the original company there during the site phase. On my next turn during the organization phase, can these two companies join each other? If they do, must they move? Can two companies join each other, than split again, then join and split, indefinitely? B) I have played a character at a haven into his own company, bringing in a second copy of the haven since there is also an original company there. I know that I may join these two companies during the site phase. May I also join them during the organization phase?"

A) No. No. No.

B) Yes.



(16) Joe Bisz asked: "I know that at haven, you may have multiple companies at the same site, and this need not be represented by multiple site cards. May you also have multiple companies at a created-haven, such as a Hidden Haven? If so, I assume these companies follow the same rules for joining and splitting as your answers to (15) above."

Technically speaking, each company at a haven needs its own site card. This is often ignored, for the obvious reason that most companies do not tap their havens or play events on them. However, it is the official rule.

In any case, you cannot get multiple companies at a Hidden Haven'd wizardhaven (except in special circumstances – e.g., during the org phase when one company is about to leave).



(17) Joe Bisz asked: "I assume Horns, Horns, Horns doesn't target the factions, since no number or type (does type mean alignment?) is given? In other words, would an FW player's minion factions get shuffled back in?"

You are correct.



(18) Joe Bisz asked: "Is a player allowed to have multiple companies at a site that was made into a Haven, such as Hidden Haven?"

As mentioned above, only in special circumstances (e.g., when a company at the site splits during the org phase and one of the resultant companies leaves the site).



(19) Joe Bisz asked: "The CRF says: "If two companies join at a Haven, cards played on the discarded version of the Haven transfer to the version of the Haven that stays in play." What about effects in play on the discarded version of the Haven--i assume these transfer as well? (For example, tapping Guarded Haven for its effect of making a minor item playable at the site until the end of the turn.) Would the effects of River transfer as well?"

Effects are not listed in the CRF. Therefore they do not transfer. By the way, I think you must mean War Forges, not Guarded Haven.



(20) Joe Bisz asked: "In COE 71 Chad made some rulings on how the effects of Stealth and similar-cards can be "spread" over multiple companies. Is this ruling still valid?"

Yes. All rulings that are not explicitly contradicted by later rulings are valid.



(21) Joe Bisz asked: "Also in COE 71 Chad wrote the following: *** The CRF rulings on Stealth and Sneakin' are being extended to each affect the other card as well. CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Stealth (currently): Prevents the revealing of a creature on-guard. CRF, Card Errata and Rulings, Sneakin' (currently): Will still affect the company if its size rises above two after resolution.

Which was slightly ambiguous. Does this mean that Stealth will now do the same thing as Sneakin ("will still affect the company if...") and Sneakin will do the same thing as Stealth ("prevents the revealing of...")? At present I assume the only way to play characters during the end of the org is with A Chance Meeting/Come to Kill?

It means exactly what it says, and no more: the clarification for Sneakin' applies to Stealth, and the clarification for Stealth applies to Sneakin'. This does not change the texts of the cards, but it does apply the same clarifications to both.
(22) The question has arisen whether Fled into Darkness is ever revealable from an on guard position.
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Fled into Darkness can never be revealed on guard because its playability conditions do not exist during the mh-phase.

(23) The question has arisen how Vile Fumes and Nature's Revenge interact with havens.
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Vile Fumes (and Nature's Revenge, in the case of wizardhavens) remove all normal haven effects. If the site card (e.g., Balrog Moria) or a card played on it (e.g., Hidden Haven) declare that attacks keyed to the site are cancelled, this is not a result of the site's being a haven, but of the further special effect. Thus, Vile Fumes and Nature's Revenge do not influence these effects.

Best,

Mark Alfano
mark.alfano@gmail.com

Official Council of Elrond Netrep*
http://www.councilofelrond.org/, http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/index.php,

*Prepared in collaboration with Mikko Vihtemäki (NetRep Team), and Chad Martin, Brian Min, Manuel Cabezali Romero, Konrad Klar, and David Barton (NetRep Advisors).
http://www.alfanos.org
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