Here, there or yonder ... exploits?

[Lake Town Geezer]

From the wording of the text on 'Here, there or yonder' I am guessing an ally can be brought in at a ruins&layers even if it is not near the normal playable site as long as the ally can move in that region. So, Quickbeam - normally only playable at Wellinghall - can be played at, for example, the Barrow Downs even though his card says 'playable at Wellinghall' as he can move there. However, Skinbark could not. Equally, Goldberry could be played at the Lonely Mountain even though Tom B could not.

Now, my guess is also Strider's special ability could not be used to bring Quicbeam to his hand to play at the Barrow Downs in the above example - surely that would be just too broken even for a cheesy card like Strider? I wonder though if Strider's controlling player: 1. put down 'Hey, there or yonder' on the table tapping a non-Strider character, 2.THEN tapped Strider in the same turn to bring Quickbeam to his hand from the discard, and 3. THEN played him as an ally with the character tapping to play 'Hey, there or yonder' in the same company (after successfully making the roll)? Is this legal? If it is, then it seems a bit too broken really? I dont see anything in the Strider text to prevent this. Maybe the 'Hey, there or yonder' can only be played if the character is already in the hand, and Strider can only tap if the ally is already playable, so we are into a 'chicken and egg' loop situation - neither event can be allowed as they require the other to be applied first?

[Konrad Klar]

Hey!
I am guessing that you are speaking about Here, There, or Yonder (not about Hey! come merry dol!).

Cards may be played at a site and at the same time be not playable at the site and vice-versa.
Free minor item may be played at hero Bag End after playing Hobbits faction, despite the fact that minor item is not playable at hero Bag End.
Hobbits cannot be played at tapped Bag End, just because the site is tapped, but still Hobbits faction is playable at Bag End.

Here, There, or Yonder does not make an ally playable at a site, it allows to play an ally at a site.
Strider cannot tap to search an ally not playable at his current site.
Similarly Mistress Lobelia* at hero Bag End cannot tap to search for minor item, no matter at which moment.

Independently from above, an ally that may be played thanks to Here, There, or Yonder is played in result of the card. Playing the ally is not possibility that could be used later. So even if Here, There, or Yonder would make an ally playable at the moment at a site then Strider's ability would not help.

*) Now I read: "Unique. Manifestation of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. May only be played at Bag End or Bree. " and, frankly speaking, I do not know where Mistress Lobelia is playable if anywhere.

[Konrad Klar]

So according to strict read the text of Mistress Lobelia, if used with Come at Need it will never cause attack. Still may be useful to reserve Mistress Lobelia and to prevent an opponent from playing her, although it is prone to Marvel Told etc. .

[Lake Town Geezer]

"Here, There, or Yonder does not make an ally playable at a site, it allows to play an ally at a site."

Thanks for this. OK, if I understand what you are saying, this means 'Here, there or yonder' is a completely useless card?

It cannot be used to bring in many allies as they are linked to specific sites e.g. Wellinghall, Old Forest. Noble hounds are only playable at Border holds?

I know there are pretty useless cards in the game, I guess this is another example.

[Konrad Klar]

You can play with this card an ally that is not playable at character's site if ally is not restricted from moving to a region where the site is located. E.g. Quickbeam at Barrow Downs. The card does not make such allies playable at the site.
"Playable" is not the same as "may be played".

[...] and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region. [...]

So for the shedding of tears this does not stop the card from playing Tom Bombadil under control of character at under-deeps site. There is no "this site's region" for such sites.

[Konrad Klar]

E.g. Quickbeam at Barrow Downs.

Correction:
E.g. Quickbeam under control of character at Barrow Downs.

Here, There, or Yonder does not say that an ally is played at site.

[Lake Town Geezer]

Ok, lets see if I understand this.

The text of the card states: "An ally may be played ...."

While Quickbeam card says: "Playable only at Wellinghall"

So, we know Quickbeam can move anywhere. For me the word 'playable' is a prerequisite for 'played'. Something cannot be played unless normally it is playable..However 'Here, there or yonder' states explicitly an ally may be played. So one way of looking at this is that the card overrides the playable prerequisite. So the card allows an ally to be played even when it isnt playable? New conditions to being played are instead introduced as described on the card.

This makes sense?

[Kjeld]

I believe you can think of it as "Playable at..." describes a fixed characteristic of the card (e.g. for the purposes of cards like Strider), while whether or not it can be played is a variable condition of the current game state.

[CDavis7M]

Thinking about "playability" as a characteristic of the card is helpful but there are situations where cards become playable by some effect. Like MEWH Untimely Brood states "One non-unique ally with a mind of 1 is playable at one of your tapped or untapped protected Wizardhavens [] each of your site phases."

An Untimely Brood has an on-going effect that makes one ally playable.

Here, There, or Yonder is an effect which is resolved by playing an ally (depending on the roll). It's true that most allies can only be played at the site given on their card, but Here, There, or Yonder recognizes that, and that was the context at the time.

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At the moment I'm not seeing any distinction in the game between "May only be played" on Mistress Lobelia and "Playable at" on most allies. The rules on playing allies don't seem to care which wording is used.

[Konrad Klar]

I believe you can think of it as "Playable at..." describes a fixed characteristic of the card (e.g. for the purposes of cards like Strider), while whether or not it can be played is a variable condition of the current game state.

Yes. And sometimes a resource can be played at site (or under control of character at site) even if it is not playable there.

At the moment I'm not seeing any distinction in the game between "May only be played" on Mistress Lobelia and "Playable at" on most allies. The rules on playing allies don't seem to care which wording is used.

Nothing specific to allies.
Forgotten Scrolls says that it can also be played at Minas Tirith.
Still unique for allies.

[Lake Town Geezer]

OK, to summarise all this: the consensus seems to be the 'Here, there or yonder' does allow a unique ally (e.g. Quickbeam) to be played at a ruins&layers he/she/it would be able to normally move to - even though the ally card says playable at a specific site (e.g. Wellinghall), as when something is 'played' it does not necessarily mean it has to be 'playable' at the site.

All this is very interesting to me, as it means an ally-based strategy is then a lot more feasible in a specific area of the game map. Also, the ability to use 'Here, there or yonder' at a tapped site is quite good as you could potentially play an item at the same time (e.g. go to The Stones and play Orcrist and Goldberry the same turn if the company has enough untapped characters and the rolls work out).

[Konrad Klar]

to be played at a ruins&layers

Precisely: under control of character at a .
If Beautiful Gold Ring in FW company at Bree is tested and Magic Ring of Nature or Magic Ring of Enigma is played in result, then the ring is played under control of company at Bree, but is not played at Bree. Minion item could not be normally played at hero site and vice-versa.

[CDavis7M]

as when something is 'played' it does not necessarily mean it has to be 'playable' at the site.

I agree that Here, There, or Yonder can play an ally at a site other than the one given on their card. But I wouldn't say this. When a card is "played" or "brought into play" it must follow the rules in section 10 on PLAYING & DRAWING CARDS. And the play must meet any play requirements on the card being played.

Here, There, or Yonder from The Dragons explicitly says to "play" an ally at a Ruins & Lairs, which usually would not be a site where an ally would be playable (outside of Roac or use of environments, etc), and the wording on movement restriction indicates that the Ruins & Lairs site might be different than the one where the ally can normally be played. So Here, There, or Yonder does indicate that the ally is playable at that particular site by this effect -- not by the usual rules.

HToY explicitly lays out how the ally is played different from the normal rules for playing allies. For instance, the ally can be played at a tapped site, which goes against the rules on playing allies, though explicitly, and the character does not need to tap to play the ally (they tap when playing HToY), which also explicitly goes against the rules on playing allies. I think this situation of not specifically following the rules on playing allies is why HToY bothers to explicitly state that the character (who already tapped) then gains control of the ally (meaning that the effect "an ally may be played" does not enable a different character to tap to play an ally). And to repeat along these same lines, with HToY the ally can be played at a site other than the site(s) they are only playable at, which explicitly goes against the restrictions on the ally card.

The card text could be longer but it says as much in fewer words.

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This type of rule interaction comes up in a few situations. Hoard items may only be played at a site which contains a hoard but Lucky Search works with hoard items because the character merely "takes control" of the item (it is not played). Thorough Search allows a character to play an item at a site even if the site is tapped, but the character playing the item must still tap according to the normal rules. Old Road allows a character at a Haven to play a faction. The character must still tap, the site still taps, and this can only be done in the site phase after facing any automatic attacks etc.

It can get more complicated. Like Thing Stolen and Sapling.

[Lake Town Geezer]

Thanks for all this clarification. One issue I have with MECCG is I like to spend a lot of spare time thinking about unusual strategies etc - but don't want to waste this recreational thinking if it is based on missunderstanding. I think 'Here, there or yonder' may be an underused card but one that I can see will be in a lot of my decks from now on.

[Konrad Klar]

Here, There, or Yonder from The Dragons explicitly says to "play" an ally at a Ruins & Lairs, which usually would not be a site where an ally would be playable (outside of Roac or use of environments, etc), and the wording on movement restriction indicates that the Ruins & Lairs site might be different than the one where the ally can normally be played. So Here, There, or Yonder does indicate that the ally is playable at that particular site by this effect -- not by the usual rules.

It may be helpful to quote text of the card to figure out what is "explicitly" and what is implied as being "explicit".

The Dragons: Here, There, or Yonder
Rarity: Uncommon, Precise: U2

Resource: Short-event

Tap a character during his site phase at a tapped or untapped . Make a roll (or draw a #) modified by +3 if the character is a diplomat. An ally may be played and placed under the character's control if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally's mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region. If an ally is played,the site if it is not already tapped.

Dark Minions: My Precious
Rarity: Rare, Precise: R2

Character: Agent

Unique. Manifestation of Gollum. Agent. May take an extra agent action (not counting against the hazard limit each time he normally takes an agent action. If he attacks successfully against a company with a ring, he and a ring (attacker's choice) are discarded. If My Precious attacks and fails but is not defeated, the defender may tap a character in the target company to play Gollum (My Precious is discarded). Any player whose character eliminates My Precious receives -1 kill MPs. Home Site: Goblin-gate, Moria, Shelob's Lair, Mount Doom

If it is "explicit" that an ally played with Here, There, or Yonder is played at site, e.g. because it is usual procedure of playing ally and it is not explicitly said otherwise, the the same applies to playing Gollum after failed attack of My Precious. No way to play Gollum for moving company.

Phrase "if it isn’t there, then it isn’t there" does not help if someone both checks whether something is explicitly written and checks whether something is not explicitly negated.

Here, There, or Yonder says "Tap a character during his site phase a tapped or untapped ". If it would say "Tap a character at a tapped or untapped ", then someone would say that it "explicitly" requires site phase because it does not say explicitly that this usual requirement of procedure of is omitted.

And Here, There, or Yonder does not say explicitly that an ally does not need be playable at given (target) site. "if the result is greater than 6 plus the ally's mind stat and the ally is not restricted from moving in this site's region" does not preclude this usual requirement of playing ally.