Clear skies - affects minion characters as well?

[Lake Town Geezer]

Clear skies states:

"Environment. Playable only if Gates of Morning is in play. The prowess of each character is modified by +2."


OK, Clear Skies is a card I have long felt was pretty weak, as it affects both your opponents companies as well as yours. However, should it affect minion companies? Afterall, it is a hero resource? It would affect Fallen Wizard though I guess?

Also, I presume it doesnt affect allies.

I also think it stacks. So with 3 copies of Echo of all joy could give a +6 to your prowess for all companies indefinitely (or until your deck is exhausted) as long as DoN is not in play.

Also, it says 'playable only if GoM is in play'. So if GoM leaves play due to DoN it should still be active if already in play (it wont fizzle) as 'playable' is not the same as 'played'? It can be cancelled by Twilight though.

In theory a Dunadan in a company with GoM active, 3x Fellowships, 3x Clear Skies, 3 x Star of High Hope, 1 x Sun (which cannot be duplicated) would get +14 prowess for the turn! Even Ioreth can kill Smaug! Of course it would be very unlikely I would have all these cards in play at once, but the interesting thing is that all the effects are additive.

[Konrad Klar]

However, should it affect minion companies?

Yes.

Also, it says 'playable only if GoM is in play'. So if GoM leaves play due to DoN it should still be active if already in play (it wont fizzle) as 'playable' is not the same as 'played'?

Will not be discarded if Gates of Morning will leave play. "Fizzle" means that condition of some action existed in play at its declaration and did not exist at its resolution.

Also, I presume it doesnt affect allies.

Yes. Does not affect.

[Lake Town Geezer]

Will not be discarded if Gates of Morning will leave play. "Fizzle" means that condition of some action existed in play at its declaration and did not exist at its resolution.

I guess I am saying will not be discarded and still be effective. So if GoM leaves play (e.g. the opponent plays a DoN), the +2 prowess bonus will still apply as the card is not also discarded. So it isnt 'fizzling' in the sense that its effect still applies to the game environment.

Further, Twilight will only cancel the effect of one environmental resource or hazard in play. So if I play GoM and Clear Skies (both environment cards), he plays a Twilight in response. Only one of the cards will be effected - the GoM (a permanent event) or the Clear Skies (a long event). Because Clear Skies is already in play, it is not affected if/when the GoM goes out of play I think.

[Konrad Klar]

Because Clear Skies is already in play, it is not affected if/when the GoM goes out of play?

If Gates of Morning will leave play, Clear Skies will not be discarded and will function. Presence of Gates of Morning in play is condition of playing Clear Skies. Some other cards may not function or may function differently, depending on presence in play Gates of Morning, or Doors of Night, or other card/effect.

[Lake Town Geezer]

Yes, this is the clarification I thought - thanks for confirming.

One thing occurs to me is that you could use Clear Skies in an 'environmental resource swamping' tactic, that basically limits the usefullness of Twilight to the hazard player. I will need to think on this.

[CDavis7M]

There are a few cards which depend on Gates/Doors to be played but then remain in play (and in effect) if the corresponding card leaves play. This same question comes up for Morgul Night as well. The cards that lose their effect will state something like "discard when Doors of Night leaves play."

In this way Gates/Doors is still more powerful than Twilight depending on the circumstances. Twilight can cancel a declared effect in response and can only be canceled itself by another Twilight, but is single target. Gates/Doors cancel and discard all opposite environments but can only work on resolved cards/effects.

If you want to swamp your opponent you really need 3 of both.

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An ally counts as a character for purposes of combat and will be affected by Clear Skies's effect "The prowess of each character is modified by +2" for such purposes.

The biggest simulation fault in this respect is probably minion characters being affected by Elf-song at their Darkhavens.

[Lake Town Geezer]

"There are a few cards which depend on Gates/Doors to be played but then remain in play (and in effect) if the corresponding card leaves play. This same question comes up for Morgul Night as well. The cards that lose their effect will state something like "discard when Doors of Night leaves play."

An ally counts as a character for purposes of combat and will be affected by Clear Skies's effect "The prowess of each character is modified by +2" for such purposes."

All good points. The Morgul Night subtlety could be quite useful given that Will of Sauron + Peril Returned is now immune to DoN leaving play as well, thanks to the CoE ruling. Only GoM can remove these two from play now it seems.

Good to know allies also benefit from the +2 prowess. I prefer this interpretation.

[Konrad Klar]

An ally counts as a character for purposes of combat and will be affected by Clear Skies's effect "The prowess of each character is modified by +2" for such purposes.

Counting as a character for purposes of combat is not the same as counting during combat as character for all purposes.
Prowess attribute is also checked for purposes other than combat.

[Lake Town Geezer]

Further note on this card:

I can see how +2 to prowess to all charaters in a company for a whole turn could be very potent in the early stages of a game before any weapons etc are available. Also, if you know you are going somewhere really dangerous - like the Under-Gates or Sulphur-Deeps - you might keep one of these in your hand for the extra little boost you will need. So I take back what I saiid about this being a weak card - I could see it being very useful in the right situations. For example, say I draw Aiglos in my opening hand with this card. I might actually go and try and get it straight away in the Iron-Deeps. So maybe it is very situational, as you are going to give the same bonus to the opponent as well.

[Konrad Klar]

Or even keep Twilight, Doors of Night in hand and play one of them when you see that opponent may have benefits from Clear Skies.

Concept of ally counting during combat as character for all purposes leads to situation that an ally with prowess receives +2 to prowess from Fellowship during combat. Once for being an ally, once for being a character. Or the the entity that counted before as an ally receives only +1 to prowess, because now it counts as character but bot ally. And losses limitations of ally; may take items from characters eliminated by bc, performs cc if strike/attack/their result enforce it, corruption card may be played on such entity.

[CDavis7M]

Concept of ally counting during combat as character for all purposes leads to situation that an ally with prowess receives +2 to prowess from Fellowship during combat. Once for being an ally, once for being a character.

Even if an ally counted as a character for all purposes they would not receive +1 prowess twice, "once for being an ally, once for being a character." They would only receive +1.

This same understanding applies to other effects in the game, which is why I bother responding to something that isn't actually a concept of the game.

[Konrad Klar]

Even if an ally counted as a character for all purposes they would not receive +1 prowess twice, "once for being an ally, once for being a character." They would only receive +1.

I do not get it.
A character (in company facing an attack, or in other circumstances) may be also a Warrior, Orc, not ceasing to be a character. And may receive all modifiers applicable to a character (in given circumstances), Warrior and Orc.
If such entity ceases to be one them, then it loses abilities of one of them and modifiers applicable to one them does not apply to it.

[Lake Town Geezer]

Or even keep Twilight, Doors of Night in hand and play one of them when you see that opponent may have benefits from Clear Skies.

Yes I like your thinking here. I am thinking only Twilight could cancel the Clear skies once played, I had forgotten DoN cancels ALL resource environmental effects on the table. Of course it counts towards the hazard limit, unlike GoM, So if I play DoN as a hazard my opponent can just cancel it with another GoM or even a twilight (as a resource) before it resolves so the Clear Skies will still be in play I guess?

I need to look closely at the resource cards again - I know there are some resources, like Star of High Hope, that are affected by GoM being in play but are not environment cards and so are not cancelled by DoN or twilight of themselves. As long events these may be more 'bullet proof'.

Here is a strategy: I play Clear Skies with a Crown of Flowers. Is the clear skies then immune to DoN coming into play? Then maybe only a Twilight targetted at the Clear Skies will take the Clear Skies out of play?

[Konrad Klar]

So if I play DoN as a hazard my opponent can just cancel it with another GoM or even a twilight (as a resource) before it resolves so the Clear Skies will still be in play I guess?

Doors of Night and Gates of Morning do not cancel/discard any card before the card will resolve. If Doors of Night will resolve, it will discard Clears Skies and other resource environments. Gates of Morning in Response will not rescue the Clear Skies.
Twilight, Balance Between Powers, HL reduction in response to Doors of Night may prevent Doors of Night from resolution.

Here is a strategy: I play Clear Skies with a Crown of Flowers. Is the clear skies then immune to DoN coming into play?

No. And even it is enough to discard one of them. Crown of Flowers will pull behind a card played with it and vice-versa.

[CDavis7M]

Concept of ally counting during combat as character for all purposes leads to situation that an ally with prowess receives +2 to prowess from Fellowship during combat. Once for being an ally, once for being a character.

Even if an ally counted as a character for all purposes they would not receive +1 prowess twice, "once for being an ally, once for being a character." They would only receive +1.

I do not get it.

Fellowship says "+1 prowess". That's the effect it gives. It doesn't say "+2"

Fellowship gives the +1 effect to "all characters and allies in the company." Allies counting as characters for combat purposes doesn't give them +2 prowess, just +1.

Even "Concept of ally counting during combat as character for all purposes" does not "leads to situation that an ally with prowess receives +2 to prowess from Fellowship during combat."

This same reasoning also applies in other situations in the game, so it matters regardless of Fellowship and allies.