Revealing multiple manifestations at Council

[Theo]

If my opponent has Aragorn II in play at the Council, the wording in MELE suggests that I can reveal both Aragorn II and Strider to reduce my opponent's MP by 2. Does this seem reasonable?

[sarma72]

MELE rules agrees with what you have

"At the Audience/Council, you may reveal any unique marshalling point cards in your hand that match unique cards that your opponent has in play. You may also reveal any marshalling point cards in your hand that are manifestations of cards that your opponent has in play. Each such revealed card reduces your opponent’s marshalling point total by one."

[Konrad Klar]

This quote applies to the Wizard vs Ringwraith games (PART IV · USING MELE WITH METW).
Normal rules regarding Audience or Council do not allow for revealing of manifestation.
Still situation from first post may happen in multiplayer games.

EDIT: "revealing" > "revealing of"

[CDavis7M]

This quote applies to the Wizard vs Ringwraith games (PART IV · USING MELE WITH METW).
Normal rules regarding Audience or Council do not allow for revealing of manifestation.
Still situation from first post may happen in multiplayer games.

EDIT: "revealing" > "revealing of"

It applies to using cards from MELE with METW. Strider is in MEBA.

[sarma72]

I would not for a second believe that it would not apply to Strider v Aragorn

[Konrad Klar]

This quote applies to the Wizard vs Ringwraith games (PART IV · USING MELE WITH METW).
Normal rules regarding Audience or Council do not allow for revealing of manifestation.
Still situation from first post may happen in multiplayer games.

EDIT: "revealing" > "revealing of"

It applies to using cards from MELE with METW. Strider is in MEBA.

So I believe that METD cards are out of luck too.
So Rogrog against Lieutenant of Angmar does work but Gothmog against Lieutenant of Morgul does not.
By naming the chapter as "USING MELE WITH METW" ICE tied some possibilities to the two sets.

[Konrad Klar]

I would not for a second believe that it would not apply to Strider v Aragorn

Why?
What symbolizes revealing second copy of Elrond at Council?
We have hacks on Elrond. ?

What symbolizes revealing second copy of Palantír of Osgiliath?
We have a prototype of something identical and soon we will bring it to the mass production. ?

Or maybe it does not symbolize anything, is just abstract concept?

[CDavis7M]

So I believe that METD cards are out of luck too.
So Rogrog against Lieutenant of Angmar does work but Gothmog against Lieutenant of Morgul does not.
By naming the chapter as "USING MELE WITH METW" ICE tied some possibilities to the two sets.

"It does what it says on the tin" -- the METD "tin" foil that is.

[Konrad Klar]

@CDavis7M

USING MELE WITH METW is the name of whole section and THE AUDIENCE AND THE COUNCIL is chapter of the section.
So maybe all players who include cards from other sets in their decks are out of luck.

@sarma72
In multiplayer games, even if all players are playing as Wizards or all are playing as Ringwraiths, for one MP card that a player has in game their opponents may reveal identical copy each, effectively reducing the player's total MPs by number of opponents .
Adding the manifestations to the picture only escalates this situation.

AFIK there are no special multiplayer rules regarding a revealing of the cards/manifestations.

[dirhaval]

My opinion is that the reduction works if all opponents reveal the identical card for this is the same for two player since the opponent is 'all' opponents.
Now, does anyone know if this reduction is from early play testing or borrowed from another ccg?

My feeling is that this reduction is to limit the play of meaty mp cards like mithril coat, orcrist since the game is varied. Does anyone recall 1990s tournaments when this mattered?

Multiple players are more prone for the Meta game. In that I would be Witch-king with his unleashed and malady in heralded lode mode.

[Annatar]

So Rogrog against Lieutenant of Angmar does work but Gothmog against Lieutenant of Morgul does not.

Can you reveal hazards at this point for MPs reduction? (i.e., at the Audience/Council)

[Konrad Klar]

So Rogrog against Lieutenant of Angmar does work but Gothmog against Lieutenant of Morgul does not.

Can you reveal hazards at this point for MPs reduction? (i.e., at the Audience/Council)

... any unique marshalling point cards in your hand that match unique cards that your opponent has in play.

[Annatar]

So Rogrog against Lieutenant of Angmar does work but Gothmog against Lieutenant of Morgul does not.

Can you reveal hazards at this point for MPs reduction? (i.e., at the Audience/Council)

... any unique marshalling point cards in your hand that match unique cards that your opponent has in play.

Sure, but:

1. What are “marshalling point cards”, for the purposes of revealing them during the End-of-Game?

You may reveal any unique cards that add to your opponent’s marshalling point total. These cards can be manifestations of one another. Niether your card nor your opponent’s card can be hazards for purposes of deck construction or played as hazards.

At the Audience/Council, you may reveal any unique marshalling point cards in your hand that match unique cards that your opponent has in play. You may also reveal any marshalling point cards in your hand that are manifestations of cards that your opponent has in play. Each such revealed card reduces your opponent’s marshalling point total by one.

Subtract any points that are subtracted from your total, including points from unique resources your opponent has duplicated in his hand.

2. On to the examples:

Can I reveal Red Book of Westmarch (hero) if my opponent has Red Book of Westmarch (hero) in play?
Can I reveal Red Book of Westmarch (hero) if my opponent has stored Red Book of Westmarch (hero)?
Can I reveal Elwen if I am a Hero player and my opponent is a Minion player and has played her as a character?
Can I reveal Elwen if my opponent has played her as an Agent (face-up)?
Can I reveal Elwen and Baduila if I am a FW player and my opponent is a Minion player and has played them as characters?
Can I reveal My Precious if my opponent has Gollum or Stinker in play?
Can I reveal Gollum or Stinker if my opponent has played My Precious (face-up)?
Can I reveal Smaug Ahunt if my opponent has Smaug Roused in play?
Can I reveal Elrond if my opponent has Master of the House in play?

2 and 5 are legal. All the others are not due to the ruling above.

Is this Digest considered incorrect?

[Konrad Klar]

It is incorrect.

It is an act of creation. Neither conclusion from existing rules and text of cards nor attempt of reconstruction (of probable sense of text that itself literally does not make a sense).

Cards on which Parsimony of Seclusion operates do not need to be hazards. And it is not because that it is so explicitly written but because nothing (implicitly/explicitly) restricts them to be hazards.

[CDavis7M]

I'm not sure if anything is correct about that ruling.