Target vs. condition - potential conflict

[Konrad Klar]

Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic.

Targeting Site and Resource Cards

A hero resource card may not target/affect a minion site card or a minion resource card. A minion resource card may not target/affect a hero site card or a hero resource card.

White Hand Rules, Playing and Using Resource, Targeting Site and Resource Cards:
change both instances of "resource card may not target/affect" to "resource event card
may not target/affect."

Hero items may not be used as conditions for minion resources, and minion items
may not be used as conditions for hero resources. Note that a Fallen-wizard may play
special ring items regardless of the alignment of the gold ring item tested.

Conditions of an action include targets. Not all conditions of action are targets, but all targets of action are conditions.

Question are:

1. Does the rule from White Hand supersede CRF, Rulings by Term, MELE vs. METW?
May FW player play Wizard's Test on Bright Gold Ring?
Spells and Magic may target of resources/sites of opposite alignment but at the same time MELE vs. METW says that a minion item may not be condition for hero resource.
I think that MELE vs. METW applies to FW player so, for example, a minion item may not be used by him as condition for Tower Raided.

2. Does the allowance "Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic." apply to a hero player.
May he play Wizard's Test on Bright Gold Ring?

P.S.
https://meccg.com/rules/by-expansion/the-white-hand/
is lacking the phrase "Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic.

[Theo]

1. Does the rule from White Hand supersede CRF, Rulings by Term, MELE vs. METW?

They are different (although overlapping) restrictions, so I don't see either as superceding the other.

May FW player play Wizard's Test on Bright Gold Ring?
Spells and Magic may target of resources/sites of opposite alignment but at the same time MELE vs. METW says that a minion item may not be condition for hero resource.

So... no. MEWH does not say "Spells and Magic may target resources/sites of opposite alignment," it simply says that the MEWH restriction is not a restriction for Spells and Magic. It does not say anything about other restrictions. Spells and Magic may still target sites of the opposite alignment, I believe.

I think that MELE vs. METW applies to FW player so, for example, a minion item may not be used by him as condition for Tower Raided.

Agreed.

2. Does the allowance "Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic." apply to a hero player.
May he play Wizard's Test on Bright Gold Ring?

A Hero player would still be bound by the CRF MELE vs. METW restriction.

https://meccg.com/rules/by-expansion/the-white-hand/
is lacking the phrase "Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic.

I imagine this is something Kodi who runs that site would appreciate hearing directly.

[Konrad Klar]

Spells and Magic may still target sites of the opposite alignment, I believe.

And non-item resources, I believe.
Right?

A Hero player would still be bound by the CRF MELE vs. METW restriction.

And "Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic." does not apply to him.
Right?

[Theo]

Spells and Magic may still target sites of the opposite alignment, I believe.

And non-item resources, I believe.
Right?

Oh sure, in principle. I'm not sure what Spells or Magic you had in mind. Fallen Wizards are not allowed to include Messenger of Mordor.

A Hero player would still be bound by the CRF MELE vs. METW restriction.

And "Note: The restrictions below do not apply to Spells and Magic." does not apply to him.
Right?

Can you give me a use case?

I'm hesitating to answer because the half-orc rules were later said to have intended to apply to Minion players. If I had to choose, I would think the MEWH Playing and Using Resources section would only apply to Fallen based on the wording "Playing resources is handled normally with these exceptions:" implying that the exceptions are not meant to change the normal play for other alignments.

[Konrad Klar]

I'm not sure what Spells or Magic you had in mind.

"Combat" Spells or Magic and "combat" non-Spells and non-Magic. Driven as by a Madness affects the characters facing attack. Allies count as characters for purposes of combat, but do not cease to be allies and resources during combat. Driven as by a Madness can do what Drughu cannot do.
Driven as by a Madness may affect a prowess and a body of Quickbeam, Drughu cannot affect a prowess of War-Warg.

Can you give me a use case?

Wizard's Test on Bright Gold Ring by hero player.

[Konrad Klar]

Can you give me a use case?

Wait...
Sacrifice of Form by hero player if Wizard is possessing minion items.

I was saving this "use case" for purpose of other topic. I would say that the use case is legal. Why it is legal I will try to explain in said topic.
But I am curious about your (and other's) opinion.

[Konrad Klar]

Konrad Klar wrote: ↑31 May 2023, 18:28
Theo wrote: ↑31 May 2023, 18:21
Spells and Magic may still target sites of the opposite alignment, I believe.
And non-item resources, I believe.
Right?
Oh sure, in principle. I'm not sure what Spells or Magic you had in mind. Fallen Wizards are not allowed to include Messenger of Mordor.

Of course Driven as by a Madness does not target the allies and Messenger of Mordor does not target the items.
But both are affecting them that is forbidden for non-Spells non-Magic events of opposite alignment (for FW player at least).

[Bandobras Took]

Ouch. I'm inclined to believe they simply wanted to clarify the following MELE with METW rule:

Only Ringwraith players may include minion characters, resources, and sites in their decks, while only Wizard players may include hero characters, resources, and sites in their decks.
However, there is an exception o this: a Ringwraith player may use any hero item resource card as if it were a minion item resource card. Similarly, a Wizard player may use any minion item resource card as if it were a hero item resource card. The following apply:
· All normal requirements must be met to play the item.
· All restrictions to movement still apply.
· All bonuses and special abilities are ignored.
· The item is only worth half (round up) of its normal marshalling points.
· The hero version of a unique item is a manifestation of the same minion version of the item and vice versa.

But unfortunately worded it in such a way that it applies to FWs.

Incidentally, Sac of Form is fine. It doesn't target any of the items because it acts through an entire class of cards:

Annotation 3: Long-events and certain other cards do not have targets because they are not played out through one specific entity, i.e., they generally affect an entire class of things.

So the items aren't a condition as such.

[Theo]

Of course Driven as by a Madness does not target the allies and Messenger of Mordor does not target the items.
But both are affecting them that is forbidden for non-Spells non-Magic events of opposite alignment (for FW player at least).

I would think that allies counting as characters for combat (and thus being able to be effected by company prowess-boosting cards in general) would mean that they are not counted as resources for the purpose of those cards, and thus not restricted.

[Theo]

Sacrifice of Form by hero player if Wizard is possessing minion items.

I was saving this "use case" for purpose of other topic. I would say that the use case is legal. Why it is legal I will try to explain in said topic.
But I am curious about your (and other's) opinion.

Thanks, I like this example. I defer to my earlier answer: I believe these WH restrictions would not apply to unfallen Wizards. If they did, the exception should equally apply, so Sacrifice of Form should be useable in this case regardless.

[Theo]

Can you give me a use case?

Wizard's Test on Bright Gold Ring by hero player.

So the example is: Wizard makes corruption check to be able to get rid of one pesky card in hand and be allowed to tap characters to support in response? I'm perfectly ok with allowing my opponent to do this if they made their deck based on this "strategy."

[Konrad Klar]

But targets are subset of conditions.