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Secrets deeply buried
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:19 pm
by Konrad Klar
Lidless Eye wrote:Clarification: In general, cards in your out-of-play pile and your marshalling point pile are considered to be actively in play for the purposes of being unique (if the card states it is unique).
Dark Minions, Placement of Cards “off to the side” (Clarification) wrote:Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any cards placed off to the side under it are discarded.
Great Secrets Buried There wrote:Playable if opponent has at least ten cards in his play deck. Opponent reveals the top ten card of his play deck to himself. If one is available, opponent must choose a non-special, non-hoard item from the revealed cards to place off to the side under this card (item does not give marshalling points and is considered out of play). If none are available, opponent must show you the cards he revealed to himself. Opponent shuffles all remaining revealed cards into his play deck. Opponent may play this item as though it were in his hand at any Under-deeps site. Alternatively, you may play this card as a resource on yourself if you have at least ten cards in your play deck. In this case, you and your opponent reverse roles.
Uderlines mine.
Item placed off the side with Great Secrets Buried There is not in out-of-play pile. By default cards placed off to the side "are in play for the purposes of uniqueness", but Great Secrets Buried There states that item is out of play (not specifying any purposes nor exceptions).
So can I play unique item which copy is placed off to the side with Great Secrets Buried There?
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:18 pm
by Ringbearer
I say because its considered out of play, it is treated as such and thus cannot be played again.
See the Lidless Eye rule you mentioned before.
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:46 pm
by Konrad Klar
Ringbearer wrote:See the Lidless Eye rule you mentioned before.
Being in out-of-play pile is not the same thing as being out of play.
That is the point.
If item placed off to the side with Great Secrets Buried There would be treated just like all other cards placed off to the side, then I don't see a reason for phrase "and is considered out of play" in text of Great Secrets Buried There.
Compare text of Great Secrets Buried There with other host cards of "off to the side cards" - Sacrifice of Form, Come at Need, Imprisoned and Mocked, No Better Use, Whispers of Rings (and some others).
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:27 am
by melkor_morgoth75
Konrad Klar wrote:
Being in out-of-play pile is not the same thing as being out of play.
That is the point.
Why not?
In my opinion being Out of Play means ... in the pile of Out of Play cards, so an item taken with GSBT counts for uniqueness.
We often read and try to understand "hidden" messages withint cards' text, i don't see the problem here,
just my 2 cents,
mm75
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:08 am
by Konrad Klar
melkor_morgoth75 wrote:Why not?
Can you explain "(these items are considered to still be in play)" from:
Sacrifice of Form wrote:Spell. Wizard only. All of the strikes from one attack against your Wizard's company fail; +3 to any body checks made to determine of the attack is defeated. Discard the Wizard (i.e., he becomes unrevealed) and any non-item cards he controls. Place any items he controls under this card and keep these off to the side (these items are considered to still be in play). If the Wizard is put back into play, return his items to him and place Sacrifice of Form with him. Wizard receives +1 to his prowess, body, and direct influence. May not be duplicated on a given Wizard.
Is no diffrence between one card placed off to the side that is "considered to still be in play" and second that is "considered out of play"?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:26 am
by Jambo
I was going to state that "out of play" simply means the card in question isn't worth any MPs but is still in play for uniqueness, and that cards that are placed out of play go into the out-of-play pile. In other words, they are one and the same thing.
However, the crf has an entry for out of play in character draft which wouldn't make sense if this was the case:
crf references to out of play wrote:[Character Draft]· Characters left over from the character pool may be placed either in the play deck, or out of play, but may not be placed in the sideboard.
[Fresh the Flesh]· Cannot be used on your Ringwraith to prevent it from being placed out of play.
As to whether there's a difference between "out-of-play pile" and "out of play"... hmm...
crf references to out-of-play pile wrote:[Combat]· When a minion company defeats an attack with no * by the MPs, the creature goes to the out-of-play pile belonging to the person who played the attack.
[Victory Conditions]· Eliminating a Wizard or Ringwraith does not end the game. An eliminated Wizard or Ringwraith is placed in the out-of-play pile, and gives -5 MP to the final total.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:29 pm
by melkor_morgoth75
Konrad Klar wrote:melkor_morgoth75 wrote:Why not?
Is no diffrence between one card placed off to the side that is "considered to still be in play" and second that is "considered out of play"?
For me not, sorry ...
I don't ICE wanted to have just A SINGLE CARD working different from ALL the others
mm75
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:47 pm
by Konrad Klar
It is common rule, that particular text of card has priority over general rules.
So you must live with it in many cases.
It is also typical for ICE placing in card's text meaningless phrases, duplicating with general rules.
What should be done?
Figuring out which phrase belongs to first and which phrase belongs to second category.
It would be at least curious, if both "considered to still be in play" and "considered out of play" would be considered as duplicating with the same general rule.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:19 pm
by Jambo
I do think that the main difference between Sacrifice of Form and Great Secrets Buried There is that with the former, any items played with the card still give their MPs.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:22 pm
by Ringbearer
The difference between Great Secrets and Sacrifice is that out-of-play items dont give MP, while items under Sac do.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:12 pm
by Konrad Klar
By default cards placed off to the side gives MP.
By default cards placed off to the side are in play for purposes of uniqueness.
GSBT says "(item does not give marshalling points and is considered out of play)."
SoF says "(these items are considered to still be in play)". (not saying anything about item's MP).
Sorry for repeating. I want it more visible.
Jambo wrote:I do think that the main difference between Sacrifice of Form and Great Secrets Buried There is that with the former, any items played with the card still give their MPs.
Ringbearer wrote:The difference between Great Secrets and Sacrifice is that out-of-play items dont give MP, while items under Sac do.
That is obvious and as such it is not matter of dicussion.
Re: Secrets deeply buried
Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:05 am
by Theo
The lack of explicitly overruling that it is out of play for purposes of uniqueness leads me to believe that the uniqueness rules should still apply. Otherwise, for example, Bad Company would allow Fallen-Wizards to play 9 mind Troll characters.
Re: Secrets deeply buried
Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:37 am
by CDavis7M
I'll update this post later. But there is CRF ruling about the particular item being placed with GSBT (eg, needs to be playable, whereas a duplicate unique is not playable).
But I couldn't find any rulings on whether this example would work:
Player 1 plays GSBT as a hazard
Player 2 places Orcrist with GSBT (off to side and out of play).
Player 1 later plays Orcrist while GSBT is in play and the original Orcrist is there with GSBT. [Is this allowed?]
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