Council of Elrond

I know it is not allowed to play hazards that require an agent against a minion player, such as Pilfer Anything..., but I'm not sure about Nobody's Friend and Inner Cunning, because these cards don't state anything like 'playable on a agent' in their texts as Pilfer does.

Thoughts?

Indeed, in second use it does not require agent card in PD. Similarly Mouth of Sauron and effect of Uvatha The Horseman does not require hazard/creature in DP. If appropriate card will not be present in DP/DP at resolution, these cards will be ineffectual.

what do you mean with PD or DP and are these cards playable against minions or not? It looks like you know the answer, but I cannot understand what you are saying

PD - Play Deck, DP - Discard Pile.

In second use (alternatively) Nobody's Friend and Inner Cunning are playable against minions.

Konrad Klar wrote:In second use (alternatively) Nobody's Friend and Inner Cunning are playable against minions.

That is what I thought, these cards are playable as short events (second use), so it's possible to take an agent from PD and play him afterwards, even against minions.

Everybody agree?

It's always handy to have the card text.

Inner Cunning wrote:Permanent-event or Short-event
As a permanent-event, playable on a face-down agent who was brought into play this turn. When the agent is revealed, and if his home site is a Shadow-hold or a Dark-hold, the site where he came into play (which is not represented by a card) may legally be any Shadow-hold or a Dark-hold. Discard when the agent is revealed.
Alternatively, as a short-event, take any agent who has a home site that is a Shadow-hold or Dark-hold from your play deck into your hand reveal it to opponent and reshuffle your play deck).

The crf states the cards that are allowed: Sudden Fury, Near to Hear a Whisper and Great Need or Purpose. Sudden Fury is like River, playable on a site, and therefore does not target a specific agent. Much like it is with Rumour of Wealth, it's entirely possible to play Sudden Fury and not have any resulting agent attack.

I'm not convinced that the secondary effect of Inner Cunning and Nobody's Friend isn't one that targets a specific agent. You cannot play these cards for no effect. If you don't have an agent in your play deck you can't play them, and they'd get returned to hand. If you do have an applicable agent in your play deck, then the card targets that agent.

Jambo wrote:I'm not convinced that the secondary effect of Inner Cunning and Nobody's Friend isn't one that targets a specific agent. You cannot play these cards for no effect.

Can you play Mouth of Sauron, tap Uvatha The Horseman if Bane of The Ithil-Stone/Lady of The Golden Wood is in play?
At resolution of Mouth of Sauron, or effect of Uvatha The Horseman Bane of The Ithil-Stone/Lady of The Golden may be no longer in play.
Can you play Mouth of Sauron, tap Uvatha The Horseman if no hazard/creature is in your DP?
At resolution hazard/creature may be in your DP.
Content of your PD/DP is not known for your opponents and you can choose hazard/creature at resolution (and even this choosing is not mandatory action).

Only two card searching in DP are playable on searched card - Exhalation of Decay and In Great Wrath.

Requirements and effects are different things. Sudden Fury is visible example. It does not require agent but site, but without scout agent at the site it will be entirely ineffectual.

EDIT:
To be precise - only Uvatha's effect is not mandatory.

crf wrote:· Annotation 8: An action that requires a target is considered to have the active condition that the target be in play when the action is declared and when it is resolved.

The target must be valid at both declaration and resolution. If you do not have an applicable agent in your play deck when you declare Inner Cunning or Nobody's Friend then the card cannot be declared. On that note, I believe Mouth of Sauron cannot be played and Uvatha cannot be tapped if there are no valid targets. Lady of the Golden Wood or Bane would prevent there being valid targets.

Jambo wrote:The target must be valid at both declaration and resolution.

Exactly.
For the same reason: if X is choosen at resolution (i.e. choice is one of effects of card), then X cannot be considered as target.

Gloom is the visible example - a company is it's target, but affected character is choosen at resolution (it is not target of Gloom).

Ok, a specific agent is not the target at declaration. Instead it is chosen at resolution. So therefore, secondary effect can be played vs minion since specific agent isn't being targeted. Right?

But...

You still can't play Inner Cunning and Nobody's Friend for no effect. If Inner Cunning said: "You may take any agent..." then perhaps there'd be a case. It doesn't, it says "Take any agent..." which implies it is an active condition and must be valid during declaration and resolution.

At declaration:
1. Nobody's Friend is played (second use).
2. Nazgul is tapped and discarded (one hazard from SB to PD).

At resolution:
2. Herion is transferred from SB to PD.
1. Nobody's Friend resolves...

..and here is question to you, Jambo.
Cannot be Herion taken from PD to its player hand?

Yes, that seems fine to me Konrad, as long as there's an agent in your PD.

The point I'm trying to make is a player cannot play a card for no effect. Take the entry for Morgul Horse in the crf as an example:

· The alternative effect of this card can be played and resolved before any Nazgûl is played with it. A Nazgûl must be played as the first declared action in the chain of effects following the resolution of the alternative effect of Morgul-horse. If a Nazgûl is not played immediately following the resolution of this card, this card is returned to its player's hand. This card cannot be played for no effect just to discard it.

Underline mine. The card's resolved by this stage. If there's no subsequent Nazgul, it's returned to the owner's hand rather than discarded.

I'm afraid that that two things (requirement and effect) are sometimes mixed up.

CRF, CRF v.3, Clarifications and Rulings, Legal Play of Cards wrote:A player may not play a card just to discard it (i.e., just get it out of his or her hand).
Specifically, a card may only be declared if it meets at least one of the following
criteria:
• The card must have an immediate effect on the game.
• The card is a long-event. Long-events can always be played, even if ultimately
they will not affect play.
• The card has a potential effect on play that could be triggered later (e.g., the
second use of Dragon's Desolation). Most permanent-events fall into this
category. Only those that are playable on or with a certain entity are restrictive.
For example, you cannot play a corruption card if no character exists that would be affected by it.

Underline mine.

It is obvious that you must choose target of corruption card at declaration and not choose at resolution between characters "that would be affected by it."

In some situations, it cannot be established at declaration whether card ultimately will have effect or not.
E.g. if card allows for searching trough decks or sideboard.

What happens if Bane of The Ithil-Stone is played in response to Smoke Rings (and no resources/characters are in SB). Will be Smoke Rings returned to its player hand as played for no effect?

Konrad Klar wrote:What happens if Bane of The Ithil-Stone is played in response to Smoke Rings (and no resources/characters are in SB). Will be Smoke Rings returned to its player hand as played for no effect?

Ah but that's a different situation. The player isn't trying to play Smoke Rings for no effect. That eventuality has come around because the opponent has intervened. Player intervention like that would cause Smoke Rings to fizzle, as is the case with Deeper Shadow, Many Turns, etc.

Since the card allows you to search through your play deck, it will always have a potential effect -- you have to shuffle your play deck after searching through it. So I think it could always be played and does not require an agent to be played.