River Mechanics (NOT A Complaint) :)

[Bandobras Took]

So, being the weirdo that I am, I started pondering how River actually works, what kind of effect it sets up, and really how tapping the Ranger actually interacts with it. Searching over the rules forums didn't come up with a topic, so I thought I'd post the whole esoteric mess here.

Standard interpretation:
When River resolves, it sets up an effect whereby a Ranger must tap for no other purpose than to cancel the effect of River, and has until the beginning of the company's site phase to do it.

My problem with that interpretation is that it's not what River actually says.

Playable on a site. If a company that has moved to this site this turn does not tap a ranger, it must do nothing during its site phase.

The problem is that a company is not considered to have moved to the site until the end of their movement/hazard phase. Until that time, they are not a company that has moved to the site and so will be unable to tap a Ranger for the effect of River, correct?

On the other hand, the CRF says, "You have until the beginning of the site phase to tap a Ranger." However, there isn't a valid Ranger to tap until the beginning of the site phase.

So if we are allowed to tap a Ranger in a company that has not yet moved to the site, are we allowed to tap any Ranger in a company that may potentially move to the site in the same manner that one may play a River on a site that a company may potentially move to?

Finally, I can't see anything that checks whether the Ranger taps for the effect of River or for some other reason. Granted that a company must tap one Ranger for each River played on a site, River itself doesn't require that they tap only for River. It merely checks to see if the company has tapped a Ranger since it has resolved its effect. Therefore the Ranger could have tapped for any number of reasons; e.g. to face an attack, to initiate a resource effect, etc. So long as it is done after River is resolved, shouldn't a Ranger tapping satisfy River no matter what the reason for the tapping?

I'm confused.

[Jose-san]

Finally, I can't see anything that checks whether the Ranger taps for the effect of River or for some other reason. Granted that a company must tap one Ranger for each River played on a site, River itself doesn't require that they tap only for River. It merely checks to see if the company has tapped a Ranger since it has resolved its effect. Therefore the Ranger could have tapped for any number of reasons; e.g. to face an attack, to initiate a resource effect, etc. So long as it is done after River is resolved, shouldn't a Ranger tapping satisfy River no matter what the reason for the tapping?

Years ago, before I knew of CRF and such, I used a similar reasoning to rule out that tapping a single ranger satisfies all rivers played against a single company. Then I was told about active/passive conditions, althought I've never understood it completely

[Bandobras Took]

The problem is that this card doesn't create an action except at the time of resolution. If there's a condition involved, then the Ranger must tap when the card resolves. Passive conditions cause an action to happen as already stated on a card in play, according to the CRF. River is not in play when you tap the Ranger. Therefore it is not a passive condition.

Which is why I'm confused about how the card works.

[sly southerner]

I've always thought one ranger should satisfy all rivers, although thats not the way it has been ruled. I think we had a UEP about this once.

[Jambo]

It's a good point Bandobras.

There's no active NetRep so to speak, so good luck getting it considered...

[sly southerner]

There is an accepted UEP on this, which created a lot of dicussion:

UEP thread:
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... ight=river

Feedback:
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.p ... ight=river

[Bandobras Took]

Unfortunately, neither of those threads helps me to understand the mechanics of the card, which is what I'm wondering about.

[Konrad Klar]

Each company that was moving to X site at some point (after finishing of movement process) is considered a company that has moved to X site.

The problem is that this card doesn't create an action except at the time of resolution.

It makes effect on site that lasts until end of turn (checks for condition until end of turn).

Passive conditions cause an action to happen as already stated on a card in play, according to the CRF.

According to old (and obsolete) definition from Lidless Eye Passive condition is "action that makes other action". Mechanics of some short-events (Greed, Rumor of Wealth) are similar, even if technically short-events does not set action that would be activated by passive condition.*

So if we are allowed to tap a Ranger in a company that has not yet moved to the site, are we allowed to tap any Ranger in a company that may potentially move to the site in the same manner that one may play a River on a site that a company may potentially move to?

If think that anwer is no. Regardless of common practice (treating phrase "has moved" as "is moving").

*) Additionally effects of such cards can interfere with actions caused by passive conditions. e.g. Greed and Rumor of Wealth with Troll-Purse. And timing of such action is unclear.

http://www.councilofelrond.org/forum/vi ... .php?t=541

[Bandobras Took]

Each company that was moving to X site at some point (after finishing of movement process) is considered a company that has moved to X site.

4. I've a small problem with River text interpretation in multi-movement phases (like Carambor's or Balrog's ability). Text on River says that if opponent does not tap a ranger, his company may not do nothing in his site phase. So, if I play River in first MH phase and opponent does not tap a ranger, but uses special ability to have second MH phase and his company is moving to another site, does the River played in the first MH phase have an affect in opponent's site phase (altough the River was played to another site then is now used)?

*** Text of River: "Playable on a site. If a company that has moved to this site this turn does not tap a ranger, it must do nothing during its site phase."

Because the River is played on a site, it won't affect your opponent's company if they end up stopping at a site other than the one you played the River on.

The CoE digest contradicts that interpretation. In addition, I have my own reservation. If I am "moving to" a site and get sent back by Snowstorm, I have not "moved to" the site. There is a difference between moving to and moved to, and River requires a company that has done the latter.

Also, there is:

This means a moving company is not at a site until the site phase.

Indicates that a company is not considered to have completely moved to the site until the site phase.

Playable during the movement/hazard phase on a company moving to an Under-deeps site. At the end of its movement/hazard phase, target company attempts to move to an additional Under-deeps site which it has not attempted to move to yet this turn. Another site card is played and a movement/hazard phase immediately follows. Return this card to your hand. All hazard creatures the company faces this turn keyed to Shadow-holds attack normally, not as detainment.

Clearly, the company is moving to two sites here. What is less clear is whether, at the beginning of the site phase, they have moved to one site or two for the purposes of interpreting River.

It looks more and more like you cannot tap a Ranger during the movement/hazard phase to counter River -- the Ranger is not part of a company that has moved to the site yet. You can only tap during the site phase before facing the automatic attack.

[miguel]

The problem here seems to be the very literal interpretation of River's wording. Then it clearly does seem like you cannot tap a ranger until the company is actually at the site. But the CRF suggests otherwise, underline is mine:

You have until the beginning of the site phase to tap a ranger, and you may tap the ranger at the beginning of the site phase without entering the site. You must tap one ranger for each river played on the site.

So you can actually tap a ranger any time after River has resolved, until (or at) the beginning of the site phase. This is true for any company moving to the site River was played on. However, in the site phase River will affect only the company (or companies if they didn't combine) at the site. If in a company no ranger tapped/taps, they can't do anything.

Is River poorly worded? Yes. Do I think we should change the way River has been interpreted for ages? No.

[Bandobras Took]

But if River is meant to be read as "A company that is moving to the site" can tap a Ranger, then CoE 4 is clearly wrong. According to that, companies moving to the site are not affected by River.

[miguel]

Key points:

(1) River will screw up a company's site phase if, and only if the following conditions are met:

• (a) Company moved and ended up at the site River was played on
  (b) A ranger in said company did/will not tap for River

(2) River creates an on-going effect which can be dealt with any time after its creation (resolution of River). This is not to be confused with passive conditions because River does not create one.


If you'd like me to provide you with a new text for River, then here you go:

"Playable on a site. If a company that has moved to this site this turn does not tap a ranger, it must do nothing during its site phase. The ranger may so be tapped until the beginning of the site phase, or at the beginning of the site phase without entering the site."

[Bandobras Took]

That would be great, I recommend making that text official.

In the meantime, since it's an on-going effect, does the Ranger need specifically to tap for River? So long as a Ranger in said company was tapped after River created its effect, shouldn't that be sufficient, no matter what the Ranger was tapped for?

[Jambo]

Does the Ranger have to tap for the river, or just tap (for anything) after the river is played? For example, could the Ranger tap for some other card effect after the river has been played and this suffice for the river?

[miguel]

Aha! I anticipated the above follow-up question. The answer is already in the cardtext!

"Playable on a site. If a company that has moved to this site this turn does not tap a ranger, it must do nothing during its site phase. The ranger may so be tapped until the beginning of the site phase, or at the beginning of the site phase without entering the site."

If you didn't have to specifically tap a ranger for (a) River, then you'd be able to pass multiple Rivers with just one ranger. But that's not the case:

You must tap one ranger for each river played on the site.

So yes, you must tap a ranger FOR each River, mmkay...

As for making miguel-river an official River, that's not going to happen (now anyways) since we can't change cardtexts.

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