THe Hunt and Lady of the Golden Wood

The place to ask and debate all rules issues related to MECCG.
Post Reply
Ringbearer
Ex Council Member
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:39 pm

Okay, here is a rules question:

I am playing minion, and opponent played Lady of the Golden Wood earlier on me. Now is he Alatar so, he wnats to play the Hunt... can he do so or does Lady prevent me from finding the named hazard?
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.

Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
Leon
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:18 pm

I think the Lady overrules all other cards that allow you to look at your deck, including the Hunt.
As a permanent-event, all effects are automatically canceled which allow a minion player to search through or look at any portion of his play deck or discard pile outside of the normal sequence of play
Bruce
Council Member
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Rome, Italy

I think the wording "allow a minion player" refers to effects played by the minion player himself (e.g. Akhohrahil Unleashed) for his own benefit: The Hunt is played by the opponent on the minion player, forcing the minion player to search through his deck for the named creature. That's why I think Lady doesn't prevent the minion player from picking the creature to be hunted.
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3157
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Unless eliminated or prevented from being in play, your opponent then finds this particular card (reshuffling his play deck if it was searched).
The Hunt forces your opponent to do the searching, so Lady would indeed stop it if your opponent has to search through his play deck or discard pile. However, you may always play The Hunt, because there is the possibility of your opponent having the creature in his hand. :)
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4484
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

...or in sideboard.
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Ringbearer
Ex Council Member
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:39 pm

And if I say I dont? Does the opponent get to verify hand and/or sideboard?
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.

Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Rules Wizard
Posts: 3157
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

In a tournament setting, the judge could verify, I imagine.
Leon
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:18 pm

Effects that allow/force you to search through your deck can be resources, hazards and as this example shows even resources from your opponent. Lady of the Golden Wood stops all these effects.
Bruce
Council Member
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Rome, Italy

Leon wrote:Effects that allow/force you to search through your deck can be resources, hazards and as this example shows even resources from your opponent.
That's quite obvious, I'm not contesting this. My argument is much more subtle and I'll try to make it as clear as possible.
Leon wrote:Lady of the Golden Wood stops all these effects.
I'm not so sure about this. The central point is the difference between allow and force. The text of Lady states
Lady of the Golden Wood wrote:As a permanent-event, all effects are automatically canceled which allow a minion player to search through or look at any portion of his play deck or discard pile outside of the normal sequence of play
(bold is mine)
Lady doesn't refer to effects which force a minion player to search/look his/her deck/discard. The Hunt is clearly an effect which forces the player to do the searching, and therefore isn't blocked from Lady.
Leon
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:18 pm

I do not think the rules make any difference between allow and force.
User avatar
Konrad Klar
Rules Wizard
Posts: 4484
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Wałbrzych, Poland

Bruce wrote:
Leon wrote:Effects that allow/force you to search through your deck can be resources, hazards and as this example shows even resources from your opponent.
That's quite obvious, I'm not contesting this. My argument is much more subtle and I'll try to make it as clear as possible.
Leon wrote:Lady of the Golden Wood stops all these effects.
I'm not so sure about this. The central point is the difference between allow and force. The text of Lady states
Lady of the Golden Wood wrote:As a permanent-event, all effects are automatically canceled which allow a minion player to search through or look at any portion of his play deck or discard pile outside of the normal sequence of play
(bold is mine)
Lady doesn't refer to effects which force a minion player to search/look his/her deck/discard. The Hunt is clearly an effect which forces the player to do the searching, and therefore isn't blocked from Lady.
"which allow [...] to search through or look at any portion of his play deck or discard pile"
may mean:
a) that gives an option (with freedom of its use),
b) that makes possible (at all).

Take Horns, Horns, Horns as example:
Each player removes all factions from his discard pile and shuffles them into his play deck. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.-LotRV
Removing of all factions from discard pile and shuffling them into play deck is not an option that may be freely used or not. Each player is forced for doing so.
But after all it was goal of one of "forced" players.
So if a) would be true then Bane/Lady/Flotsam would not stop players from doing this action.
Usually an effect of resource is convenient for players (at last for player that plays the resource), but sometimes it is not. E.g. If Horns, Horns, Horns was played after News of Doom, factions will be returned to PD, but sites where they may be played will be still in discard pile.
The same applies to The Hunt. If opponent has Twilight (to remove Clear Skies) or Ire of The East, Blind To The West (against FW), The Hunt may be fatal for hunter.

For rules it is impossible to determine which action is "convenient" an which is not for player and from which "chance" Bane/Lady/Flotsam should prevent him (and from which "risk" he should not be prevented).

So I'm opting for b).
We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “Rules Questions & Debate (unofficial)”