Council of Elrond

Does the cardtext of cards placed "off to the side" have an effect on the game?
Suppose my wizard has minion Arkenstone and gets Sacrificed, Arkenstone goes off to side, do all Dwarves in play still get +1 mind, since Arken is still considered in play?

If i recall correct, cards placed off to the side have on effect on game. I would say that arkenstone doesnt add +1 mind in that case. but i'm not a rules guru

My first hunch is no. The Dark Minions rules say a card placed off to the side is "in play for the purposes of uniqueness."

This implies that they are not considered in play for any other purpose.

Cards placed off to the side doesn't have an effect on the game, except for purposes of uniqueness, just as Ben said. That's somewhere on the rules...

You think I hadn't checked rules?

medm/meba rules wrote:

Certain cards and effects require other cards be placed "off to the side" (e.g., Sack Over the Head). (-) Any card placed off to the side absolutely cannot be targeted or otherwise affected by the game except by cards that specifically affect cards placed "off to the side."

Cards placed off to the side are in play for the purposes of uniqueness. Unless stated otherwise, when a host permanent-event is removed from the playing surface, any cards placed off to the side under it are discarded. (-)

Reading this in the strict sense, it means the game doesn't affect the card off to the side, it does not mention anything about whether the card off to side affects the game. The fact that it is not mentioned, does not of course imply that it is only in play for purpose of uniqueness.

But maybe there's a ruling somewhere, CRF only says something about removing the host, nothing else, but maybe there's some NetRep ruling not yet incorporated.

Thorsten the Traveller wrote: Reading this in the strict sense, it means the game doesn't affect the card off to the side, it does not mention anything about whether the card off to side affects the game. The fact that it is not mentioned, does not of course imply that it is only in play for purpose of uniqueness.

But maybe there's a ruling somewhere, CRF only says something about removing the host, nothing else, but maybe there's some NetRep ruling not yet incorporated.

He, he...

Now I understand meaning of "is considered out of play" in text of Great Secrets Buried There.

Great Secrets Buried There wrote:Playable if opponent has at least ten cards in his play deck. Opponent reveals the top ten card of his play deck to himself. If one is available, opponent must choose a non-special, non-hoard item from the revealed cards to place off to the side under this card (item does not give marshalling points and is considered out of play). If none are available, opponent must show you the cards he revealed to himself. Opponent shuffles all remaining revealed cards into his play deck. Opponent may play this item as though it were in his hand at any Under-deeps site. Alternatively, you may play this card as a resource on yourself if you have at least ten cards in your play deck. In this case, you and your opponent reverse roles.

Underline mine.

nice pickup! Does this mean we have our legal precedent here? So Arkenstone does effect the game? only thing, GSBT is pre-mele.

I wrecked my brain but could not think of any other cards that would have an effect on the game, usually only characters and items go off to side.

There still is another questions with the rule: is in play for purpose of uniqueness. If GSBT suggests that it is in fact not: 'only in play for purpose of uniqueness', then there could be many more issues. e.g. Iron Crown: if in play then Fury can't be played. And of course, if Galadriel is off to side, does Balrog of Moria affect Lorien?
Because these cards do not affect Iron Crown/Galadriel per se, they just check if they are in play...

IMO a sacrificed minion Arkenstone still affects the game, since it was regularly brought into play before being sacrificed, it keeps on having its +1 mind effect, because this effect only requires the Arkenstone being in play.

GSBT works completely differently. The card placed on GSBT is considered out of play simply because it never came into play: it was directly put there from the deck.

Note the irony that while wizz bears minion Arken then text doesn't apply, while if he's Sacrificed the text does apply? It does make sense though, no Dwarf would sleep quietly knowing Arkenstone was lying somewhere around to be picked up, while if it's in the possession of a wizard he would be discouraged.

I don't get your distinction between out of play and off to the side. As far as I know, when the card hits the table, it's in play. When it's off the table, it's out of play. That's why the remark on GSBT is so strange, as Konrad noticed.

Well, looks like a card can be on the table and at the same time out of play: think of Rumours/Whispers of Rings...

After all, both GSBT and Rumours/Whispers say that you can play the item/ring put on the perm event as if it were in your hand. How could you play the item if it was already in play? That would simply make no sense.

but a ring on Rumours/Whispers is off to side, so he's in play, at least for purpose of uniqueness...
So apparently you can play something that in part is already in play, anyway if you play a Dragon on Summons from Long Sleep it's off to side but in play, and you still play it, according to text.

Bruce wrote:Well, looks like a card can be on the table and at the same time out of play: think of Rumours/Whispers of Rings...

After all, both GSBT and Rumours/Whispers say that you can play the item/ring put on the perm event as if it were in your hand. How could you play the item if it was already in play? That would simply make no sense.

You may play a ring special item placed with this card as though it were in your hand.
Rumours/Whispers of Rings says.

So at the short moment, when it is taken on hand and played, it is not in play.
Otherwise it would not be played at all, even if ring special item would be in play only for uniqueness.

P.S. And Gandalf would not be played if Gandalf The White Rider is in play. For the same reason (because its manifestation is already in play).