Draft of CoE Digest #200 Q8 - Flatter a Foe + Foolish Words - Open until August 27th

[Manuel]

In order to contribute to this thread please follow these rules:

1) The thread will be open until August 27th. The usual time is two weeks but having in mind that it's vacation time we've decided to leave it open a bit longer.
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3) After the review period, the ROC will carefully consider everyone's contributions, revise the draft as appropriate, and then the Digest will be published and official.

Does a character with Foolish Words gets a -4 penalty when making the influence check required by Flatter a Foe?

For reference, here is the text for both cards:

Flatter a Foe:

Flattery attempt. Playable on a character whose company is facing an attack of the type listed below. Character makes an influence check (modified by his usual direct influence and +2 if a diplomat). If successful, the attack is canceled and the hazard limit for the character's company is decreased by two. The influence check is successful if the result is greater than: 10 against a Dragon; 11 against Men or Drakes; 12 against Trolls, Orcs, Elves, and Giants.

Foolish words:

Playable on a character. Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by target character is modified by 4. If placed onguard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt. During his organization phase, the character may tap to attempt to remove this card by making a roll (drawing a #)if this result is greater than 7, discard this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.

In order to answer this question, one must remember that “influence check” and “influence attempt” are not synonyms. Furthermore, Flatter a Foe specifically has the keyword “flattery attempt,” and the character it is played on has to make an influence “check.” Foolish Words doesn’t affect flattery attempts or influence checks, and thus (despite the fact that it may seem counterintuitive in a thematic sense) Foolish Words doesn’t affect a character trying to Flatter a Foe.

[Khamul the Easterling]

Foolish words:

Playable on a character. Any riddling roll, offering attempt, or influence attempt by target character is modified by 4. If placed onguard, it may be revealed and played when a character in the company declares such an attempt. During his organization phase, the character may tap to attempt to remove this card by making a roll (drawing a #)if this result is greater than 7, discard this card. Cannot be duplicated on a given character.

In order to answer this question, one must remember that “influence check” and “influence attempt” are not synonyms. Furthermore, Flatter a Foe specifically has the keyword “flattery attempt,” and the character it is played on has to make an influence “check.” Foolish Words doesn’t affect flattery attempts or influence checks, and thus (despite the fact that it may seem counterintuitive in a thematic sense) Foolish Words doesn’t affect a character trying to Flatter a Foe.

I consider the use of the terms of "offering attempt" and "influence attempt" in the Foolish Words' text as improper: The way I see it, the fact that these attempts are to be modified by 4 indicates that, essentially, the check is intended to be modified - not the attempt (as the whole procedure of trying to influence something).
My proposal therefore is to rule/clarify that Foolish Words does affect the roll from Flattery.

[Konrad Klar]

Ultimately a die roll resulting from attempt is modified by numeric value, not an attempt as whole. But some cards say that "influence attempt" is modified (e.g. Webs of Fear & Treachery). Either they are improperly written, or modifying an influence attempt means modifying an influence check resulting from the attempt.

[dirhaval]

O' Valar let me not say foolish things now.

Good news; both cards come from the same set and adjacent in the alphabetical order; so maybe the creators hoped our debate would be avoided. It is true that all the game's influence attempts affect a table card? (item, faction, character) already on the table and checks are for situations such as Flatter a Foe? This can aid us.

Let me search through all the card texts now...
influence check: Fool's Bane,Something Else at Work, Roac the Raven, almost all factions, The Iron Crown, Flatter a Foe, A Friend or Three, Lordly Presence, Muster, New/Old Friendship, Old Road, Persuasive Words, Wizard's Laughter; stopped searching.

influence attempt: Lord of the Carrock, Scatha at Home, all agent hazards concern with influencing by agents, Webs of Fear and Treachery, Foolish Words, Times are Evil, Lure of Power, The Warg-king; stopped searching.

Minion Orc factions that can be bundled on a Leader have both phrases.


For a moment I thought that reading the hazards told me that influence attempts were only used against an opponent's resources.
But believe that the attempt includes the check. That is one still makes an influence attempt using Red Arrow, but there is no influence check.
If an offering attempt including an influence attempt, then IMHO, "influence attempt" would not be listed on Foolish Words.

Let me say something I feel is the most logical statement I have said on this forum:
An influence attempt is announced before showing a card requiring an influence check. That is faction influencing or an opponent's card.
Think of that phrase, Influence attempt, as an invitation. You can not visit without one.

Flatter a Foe though is played on its own. Thus it makes no influence attempt. I like to think of this as Dragon's Blood with a body check.
Character is not wounded if not eliminated by this body check. Thus combat body checks are like "body killed attempts" And the Dragon's blood is plain body check. Similar to why a tapped agent has no -1 prowess penalty when attacking.

Now the question is if this interpretation is held, do we hold it for all instances. That is Lure of Power is not activated if Flatter a Foe influence check fails?
[making a lot of comments here in hopes my PM messages in my sent box are sent; some still in that box for months.]

[Baba]

I allow myself to give my opinion (which engages only me)
I am not a competitor, just a long time casual player with french sets and LE rulebook...
I admit to having trouble understanding how to make these two cards interact. For me there is no interaction for the following reasons:
- Foolish words don't target flattery attempt.
- Flatter a foe is not concerned by an influence attempt, influence check only (the step forward)

By the way I think that foolish words do not refer to the exchange of words between Bilbo and Smaug but rather to the stupid words of Éomer in front of Gimli about Galadriel (which the illustration tends to confirm). It's not so thematical...

For all this I think that without an errata on Foolish words (adding flattery attempt), that card cannot affect flatter a foe....


PS sorry for my english, maybe i should have used an automatic translator.....

[Theo]

I will only add that this distinction between influence attempt and influence check has greater implications if they were to be made synonymous (e.g., Lure of Power).

At least there is this very old ruling:

>7. Is an "Influence Check" indicating an Influence Attempt automatically? So... is "Flatter a Foe" triggering Lure of Power?

No. Flatter a foe is a Flattery attempt that uses an influence check, it is not an influence attempt.

... as brilliant as the story would be for someone successfully flattering a Dragon to let the power of their words go to their head, as we say.

Curiously, I believe the original rules describe bringing a faction into play only as requiring an influence check. However, their example includes an "attempt to bring the Ice-orcs into play," as does the definition of a normal influence check. "Influence checks are called for in other situations also."-MELE

[Manuel]

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

The ROC will study them carefully and come up with a final digest soon.