The problem is mainly that somebody even has the rights to tolkiens world....
becuase the game uses his work....
so i believe we would also have to ask the Tolkien Brand ....
That for example is the main problem in producing for example a new edition...
because the rights for the game mechnism could be somehow be aquiered...
but getting the permission to use Tolkins work for an extra expansion.... is very unlikly without paying for it.
And I think there applies the same for reproducing old ones!!!
Joes letter part 5:PRODUCT AVAILABLITY,COMMUNITY&ADVERTI
I'm amazed this conversation has proceeded for so long along this vein. It's quite simple. TOLKIEN ENTERPRISES owns the rights to all games based on The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. MECCG is wholly its property and always was. "(c) Tolkien Enterprises" is on every MECCG card and in every MECCG book. They own the look-and-feel, the rules/mechanics, and the specifics of each card.
Profit doesn't matter. You can print up for yourself one copy of one card--either an old ICE card or a new MECCG card of your own invention--and it's illegal. Whether you knew the law or not, the card will be confiscated, all equipment that you used to produce the card will be confiscated, and you will be fined and/or jailed.
Okay, realistically NONE of that will happen to you if you do that for a handful of cards and use them yourself in (more or less) private settings. But it's an entirely different matter if someone does it en masse and then publicizes the fact. Much worse if he sells them (even at cost). And if the "Council of Elrond" or any other such entity did it, they would cease to exist. Tolkien Enterprises is notoriously aggressive in protecting their intellectual property.
That leaves you with two options.
1) Circulate free PDFs (link to them here but host them off-site just to be on the safe side) and let users decide for themselves what to do with them.
or
2) Raise some capital, start a company, and go bid for the Hobbit/LotR CCG license. Decipher's license expired in 2007, so as far as I can tell it is up for grabs. Of course, "Your company must have a minimum of three years in manufacturing and distribution of the product line for which you are seeking a license." So you're probably better off forming a relationship with an existing company that may have a shot at getting it. The Hobbit movie(s) are coming up, and do you think they want lots of tie-ins to be published? Of course!
Again, sorry for being so outspoken for a newbie, but I didn't like seeing false hopes raised.
Profit doesn't matter. You can print up for yourself one copy of one card--either an old ICE card or a new MECCG card of your own invention--and it's illegal. Whether you knew the law or not, the card will be confiscated, all equipment that you used to produce the card will be confiscated, and you will be fined and/or jailed.
Okay, realistically NONE of that will happen to you if you do that for a handful of cards and use them yourself in (more or less) private settings. But it's an entirely different matter if someone does it en masse and then publicizes the fact. Much worse if he sells them (even at cost). And if the "Council of Elrond" or any other such entity did it, they would cease to exist. Tolkien Enterprises is notoriously aggressive in protecting their intellectual property.
That leaves you with two options.
1) Circulate free PDFs (link to them here but host them off-site just to be on the safe side) and let users decide for themselves what to do with them.
or
2) Raise some capital, start a company, and go bid for the Hobbit/LotR CCG license. Decipher's license expired in 2007, so as far as I can tell it is up for grabs. Of course, "Your company must have a minimum of three years in manufacturing and distribution of the product line for which you are seeking a license." So you're probably better off forming a relationship with an existing company that may have a shot at getting it. The Hobbit movie(s) are coming up, and do you think they want lots of tie-ins to be published? Of course!
Again, sorry for being so outspoken for a newbie, but I didn't like seeing false hopes raised.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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That's exactly how I thought it was....
but I wasn't able to put it in so perfect words!
And didn't know the exact terms.
but I wasn't able to put it in so perfect words!
And didn't know the exact terms.
Finally somebody shed some light on the issue. Tnx for the detailed explanation Falconer. 
Though there's not so many good news: I expected a lot of copyright-related difficulties but I hoped there could be some way to come past them, looks like there isn't 
Since the copyright issue includes the game mechanics and distribution of cards (even with alternative non-proprietary artwork), this excludes printing official CoE sanctioned proxies.
The only feasible solution seems to make .pdf files available (it could be easily done from the GCCG scans) for self printing, maybe together with some "how to print your own proxies" instructions, though a 3x3 A4 sheet is pretty simple to print and needs practically no resizing: the cards have already the right size. The only thing CoE could do would be providing on request cheap wide bunches of commons to attach the self-printed proxies on. This solution should not violate any law if I understood correctly, and it could be taken into consideration. Right?
Though there's not so many good news: I expected a lot of copyright-related difficulties but I hoped there could be some way to come past them, looks like there isn't Since the copyright issue includes the game mechanics and distribution of cards (even with alternative non-proprietary artwork), this excludes printing official CoE sanctioned proxies.
The only feasible solution seems to make .pdf files available (it could be easily done from the GCCG scans) for self printing, maybe together with some "how to print your own proxies" instructions, though a 3x3 A4 sheet is pretty simple to print and needs practically no resizing: the cards have already the right size. The only thing CoE could do would be providing on request cheap wide bunches of commons to attach the self-printed proxies on. This solution should not violate any law if I understood correctly, and it could be taken into consideration. Right?
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thorondor
- Ex Council Chairman
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ehm, i have been producing this ME Drinking Card series, which took more than 3 years. does that count??Falconer wrote: 2) Raise some capital, start a company, and go bid for the Hobbit/LotR CCG license. Decipher's license expired in 2007, so as far as I can tell it is up for grabs. Of course, "Your company must have a minimum of three years in manufacturing and distribution of the product line for which you are seeking a license." So you're probably better off forming a relationship with an existing company that may have a shot at getting it. The Hobbit movie(s) are coming up, and do you think they want lots of tie-ins to be published? Of course!
but probably TE wont react very friendly ...
anyway: thakns for your comprehensive description about what awaits us. no surprises here. and i would advise to avoid to cross the ways of TE. i had some experiences with them when they contacted the tolkien societies about some copyright issues.
there is nothing about tolkien, middle-earth or so. its all about money. licenses and law. and you are talking with lawyers exclusively, who got a job to do.
so a licence is out of question.
the question is: are we willing to take a risk (and even making a proxy for ones own use is a breach of laws - as we have found out)? and how far are we willing to go?
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Ringbearer
- Ex Council Member
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Are we sure the game mechanics are also property of Tolkien licences? I know the images are but I aint sure if the mechanics are. By example the nams of the NAzgul as used in MECCG werent used by Decipher in their LOTR game, because ICE had the rights to those names, since they had invented them themselves (I believe the only Nazgul mentioned by name excluding the Witch King of course is Khamul).
Still it leaves a minefield to make new cards, since a link to Tolkienish works is too easy to make.
I believe the only option would be making virtual cards, as it uses only the game mechanics, and then I am not sure if mentioning Army of the Dead on a card already violates copyrights.
Still it leaves a minefield to make new cards, since a link to Tolkienish works is too easy to make.
I believe the only option would be making virtual cards, as it uses only the game mechanics, and then I am not sure if mentioning Army of the Dead on a card already violates copyrights.
"I used to roll the dice, feel the fear in my enemies eyes."
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.
Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
- Coldplay, Viva la Vida.
Gaming is life, the rest is just dice rolls.
- John Kovalic, Dork Tower
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Nerdmeetsyou
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yeah and maybe one day we could even create cards with new card names for v-cards....
like it was done in later star wars sets!
like it was done in later star wars sets!
See this subject :Ringbearer wrote:Are we sure the game mechanics are also property of Tolkien licences? I know the images are but I aint sure if the mechanics are.
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?t=2609
See this subject :Ringbearer wrote:Are we sure the game mechanics are also property of Tolkien licences? I know the images are but I aint sure if the mechanics are.
http://www.meccg.net/dforum/viewtopic.php?t=2609
No, the ICE Nazgul names are (and always have been) the property of Tolkien Enterprises. Basically, anything ICE ever did under the Middle-earth brand is copyright Tolkien Enterprises.Ringbearer wrote:Are we sure the game mechanics are also property of Tolkien licenses? I know the images are but I aint sure if the mechanics are. By example the names of the Nazgul as used in MECCG werent used by Decipher in their LOTR game, because ICE had the rights to those names, since they had invented them themselves (I believe the only Nazgul mentioned by name excluding the Witch King of course is Khamul).
One of Tolkien Enterprises's long-time licensees is the play-by-mail game, and they still use the ICE Nazgul names and any other ICE material they want (such as Angus McBride or Liz Danforth art).
It just happens that no ICE material was included in Decipher's license. The easiest way to understand it is that Decipher's license was to make a CCG (and an RPG) specifically based on the New Line Cinema movies, and so the deal involved NLC and not the overall TE intellectual property. So you see pictures of Elijah Wood and his signature "Frodo facial expression" on the cover of their products...
Whereas some licenses, such as the MMORPG, do NOT include the movies. Needless to say, the movie rights are MUCH more complicated than every other license.
Now, back to the rules/mechanics of the game. I don't think you have a case that ICE still owns them, i.e. as if they were a separate entity from the Hobbit/LotR theme of the game. "(c) Tolkien Enterprises" is on every MECCG product without qualifier. Seems pretty cut-and-dried.
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Nerdmeetsyou
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I'm not sure if the game mechanics and similar are property of Tolkien enterprise...
because they should be in ownership of the developers company...
like it was with the star wars game....
after it died because the licence was lost...decipher tried to create a new game with the exact same set of rules and mechanics... but it's own world.
because they should be in ownership of the developers company...
like it was with the star wars game....
after it died because the licence was lost...decipher tried to create a new game with the exact same set of rules and mechanics... but it's own world.
Great conversation.
I think we have to proceed with option 1, creating pdfs that we would call "Card lists." Somewhere we'd then have to explain to players how they can create their own cards.
I really, really like Wolfgang's idea of official COE proxies. I am unsure how dangerous it would be... even if the cards were distributed off-website by individuals, if our game grew bigger the numbers of these cards in production would increase and potentially attract attention. Or maybe they wouldn't?? The only other solution I can see is to make a Virtual Card that does the exact same thing as Longbottom Leaf, and make that card's original a common.
But that idea does not confront the problem of what to do when the physical cards degrade, become lost, or run out.
Frodo
I think we have to proceed with option 1, creating pdfs that we would call "Card lists." Somewhere we'd then have to explain to players how they can create their own cards.
I really, really like Wolfgang's idea of official COE proxies. I am unsure how dangerous it would be... even if the cards were distributed off-website by individuals, if our game grew bigger the numbers of these cards in production would increase and potentially attract attention. Or maybe they wouldn't?? The only other solution I can see is to make a Virtual Card that does the exact same thing as Longbottom Leaf, and make that card's original a common.
But that idea does not confront the problem of what to do when the physical cards degrade, become lost, or run out.
Frodo
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Nerdmeetsyou
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We will probably never run out of stupid commons to glue cards on.... (at least during our lifetime...)*G*
I realy don't like the idear of creating a card that exactly funktions as another... but it might be a solutioin if none is available... to solve it via V-cards....
It would be a greath step for the game to at least allow good printed proxies at the greath championships like nationals worlds usw.
Then the longbottom problem would be solved at least!!!
On the other hand it would be much greather if we could produce actualy real cards....
and make print sheets with all the most usefull cards...*G*
so you finaly have enough to play with of cards you would want in every deck!!!*G*
I realy don't like the idear of creating a card that exactly funktions as another... but it might be a solutioin if none is available... to solve it via V-cards....
It would be a greath step for the game to at least allow good printed proxies at the greath championships like nationals worlds usw.
Then the longbottom problem would be solved at least!!!
On the other hand it would be much greather if we could produce actualy real cards....
and make print sheets with all the most usefull cards...*G*
so you finaly have enough to play with of cards you would want in every deck!!!*G*
So. Don't Pete Fenlon and Coleman Charlton run MAYFAIR these days?
Are you thinkin' what I'm thinkin'?
Hmmm! They are based in Chicago! I am based in Chicago! Maybe I'll knock on their office door someday and innocently ask them to sign my "The One Ring" card. And see if I can draw them into conversation about their game...
Are you thinkin' what I'm thinkin'?
Hmmm! They are based in Chicago! I am based in Chicago! Maybe I'll knock on their office door someday and innocently ask them to sign my "The One Ring" card. And see if I can draw them into conversation about their game...