Draft of CoE Digest #203 Q7 - Carambor + Spying out the lands - Open until January 22

[Manuel]

In order to contribute to this thread please follow these rules:

1) The thread will be open until Jan 22.
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3) After the review period, the ROC will carefully consider everyone's contributions, revise the draft as appropriate, and then the Digest will be published and official.

How does Carambor interact with Spying out the Land?

On one hand, we have Carambor’s text:

Unique. May tap at the end of his company's movement/hazard phase to allow it to move to an additional site on the same turn. Another site card may be played and another movement/hazard phase immediately follows for his company. The new site path must contain at least one Wilderness [w]. Home Site: Carn D

And on the other, we have Spying out the Land:

Magic. Spiritmagic. Playable on a spirit magic using character during the organization phase. Opponent may reveal to you any hazards from his hand, and only those hazards can be played during the character company's movement/hazard phase. Unless he is a Ringwraith, character makes a corruption check modified by -3.

Finally, we have this CRF entry, Turn Sequence Rulings, Movement Hazard Phase, Movement:

If a company moves twice in one turn, resources played during the organization phase, like Secret Passage, are reapplied to the company at the beginning of each of their movement/hazard phases, if the conditions of the card are met.

While it is true that the effects of Spying out the Land are reapplied to the company at the beginning of each of their Movement/Hazard Phases, there has been a common misconception that only the cards revealed during the Organization Phase may be played throughout all of the subsequent Movement/Hazard Phases. In fact, that is not the case: per the CRF cited, the resource as a whole is reapplied, not only a fraction of it (and it is worth noting, although the CRF says “if the conditions of the card are met”, that would appear to be a reference to Secret Passage’s “if moving to a Ruins & Lairs” rather than its active condition of being played at the end of the Organization Phase).

This means, at the beginning of each subsequent Movement/Hazard Phase, the hazard player may once again reveal any hazards from their hand, and only those hazards may be played during that particular Movement/Hazard Phase. As a noteworthy consequence, the spirit-magic character will also have to make a new corruption check each time the effects of the card are reapplied.

The same would be true for any other card that allows a company to move more than once during one turn.

[Konrad Klar]

Opponent may reveal to you any hazards from his hand, and only those hazards can be played during the character company's movement/hazard phase.

is immediate action.
Postponing it to the beginning of character's M/H phase is act of creation.
Spying out the Land does not specify any conditions under which its effect is applied.
Conditions and effects like "if company moves to here or there then..." are not immediate actions.

[dirhaval]

Never thought about more corruption checks.
However, weary that a corruption check is part of the "reapplied."
This is due to hazards such as Left Behind and not like Seized By Terror or Faces of the Dead.
Always wanted to play Left Behind on a character that was Left Behind; which maybe why it states "original company."
Thus, I like to be exact on "moving" a company to be by the will of the resource player.
I digress.

Had a deck idea to riddle away opponent's hazards that would hurt me next turn; like River near end of game.

I would say No so to use Spying Out the Land to avoid River or nasties in Gondor.
Minion Rangers are: Eradan, Tarcil, Gulla, Nimloth, Carambor, Odoacer, Uchel, Herion, Juoma, Gisulf,
Mionid, Nevido Smod, Dasakun, Pon Opar, Taladan, Baduila, Grimburgoth, Om-buri-Om, Pon-ora-Pon.
A lot of agents. True, easier to play Magic Ring of Savagery.

No for me, but just for a rare instance that I like to use.

[Bandobras Took]

Strong disagree.

If a company moves twice in one turn, resources played during the organization phase, like Secret Passage, are reapplied to the company at the beginning of each of their movement/hazard phases, if the conditions of the card are met.

Strictly speaking, this rule says that the card is reapplied to the *company*. It says nothing about it reapplying to the opponent's hand or cards. What is reapplied to the *company* is which cards can be played on them, and those remain the cards that were revealed during the organization phase.

I do not think the intent was to make a character tap for each movement/hazard phase when playing Ford or Secret Entrance, but that is what this ruling would require.

Orc-Mounts would be the final nail in the coffin for me, though:

The hazard limit against the company increases by two and the prowess of any hazard creatures played against it this turn is modified by ‐1.

This ruling would mean that hazard creatures face a cumulative -1 penalty for each m/h phase of the company, since each application of "-1 this turn" would be a separate penalty (likewise Steeds, which contains the same phrasing). Hail of Darts also gets rather ridiculous for the same reason; the unstated duration must be until the end of the turn, else the card would be useless. Roam the Waste would eliminate all Wildernesses and Shadow-Lands, period.

This ruling creates too many issues with other cards, and is mechanically suspect enough just for the card it deals with, for me to think it entirely valid.

[Theo]

Seems not to have much to do with Carambor, just with multiple movement-hazard phases.

The CRF entry cited is vague. Surely it cannot be literally, "[all] resources played during the organization phase are reapplied to the company..." Glamour of Surpassing Excellence played during organization phase could double-drink if the company does not move? The phrase, "like Secret Passage," seems critical. I interpret the cited CRF entry to allude to the CRF entry presented above it (underline mine):

Effects that are played during the organization phase, and depend on the site or site path of a moving company, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when the effect resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.

This entry appears to have no meaning for Spying out the Land, which does not depend on the site or site path of a moving company.

We have a ruling from Ichabod:

>If I play something that affects the hazards played during the Move/Hazard phase (Spying out the Land, Down Down to Goblin Town, etc), does that affect ALL M/H phases of that company this turn (from Forced March, Leg it double quick) or just the first one?

It is applied to each monvement/hazard phase, but apply it seperately to each one. Therefore, Down Down to Goblin Town would work on the second m/h phase, but you would only get the effect if you moved to a ruins & lairs on the second phase.

If one wants to strictly adhere to Ichabod's response above, the above CRF entry needs to be generalized. Either:

• Effects that are played during the organization phase, and are limited in affect to a company's movement/hazard phase, create an effect which is not declared until the new site is revealed. If the site or site path is not of the appropriate type when an effect that depends on them resolves, the resource has no effect. If the company has multiple movement/hazard phases on the same turn, the card applies separately to each phase, having an effect only if the correct conditions are met.

OR,

• In addition, other effects that are played during the organization phase, and are limited in effect to a company's movement/hazard phase, are declared and resolved at the start of each of the company's movement/hazard phases before cards are drawn.

The difference is the resolution timing when there is no dependence on the site or site path, affecting whether other cards could be played in response. I favor the second, given other rulings, e.g., hazard limit reduction. This would actually let cards like Orc-mounts work. This seems to be what this Draft is looking for anyway.

I consider this suggestion from Ichabod for multiplayer:

For Spying out the Land and Here is a Snake, each hazard player shows hazards immediately before he draws and/or plays hazards, and then can only play those hazards.

This ruling suggests that the cards revealed for Spying are NOT revealed during the organization phase, but during the movement/hazard phase. I think Ichabod was implicitly assuming the second option I give above.

---

Without such an implicit assumption, I suspect Ichabod may have overlooked how Spying out the Land is different from Down Down to Goblin Town in his response. (Spying does not depend on the site or site path of a moving company.)

I will note that there is a difference between a player's turn or movement/hazard phase and a company's movement/hazard phase. Spying out the Land is NOT worded to affect hazards during the general, player's movement/hazard phase (of which there is always only one per turn). As far as I know, there are no other short-events played during the organization phase that are applied to a specific company's movement-hazard phase. This means that none of the rulings on other cards are likely to apply, and I would also expect none of the general rulings to apply.

Therefore, I would challenge the interpretation that Spying out the Land should apply to more than one of the company's movement/hazard phases. (Unless we adopt one of the CRF extensions I give above.) My basis is that it uses a singular and specific "the character [sic] company's movement/hazard phase," rather than plural "...phases" or categorical "each movement hazard phase for the character's company." ICE used "phases" at other times: Left Behind, Gangways Over Fire. Singular and specific "the phase" suggests just the one that is known when the card resolves. Same thing for Washed and Refreshed and the company's new site.

I think this is truer to the text of ICE; here, Ichabod ruled based on his own unstated assumptions.

[Manuel]

Thanks everyone for your contributions. The RC will study them carefully and come up with a final digest soon.

[Manuel]

Since this topic has escalated to a bigger issue of "how to deal with effects played on org phase when there are multiple mov/haz phases for a company" we've decided to open a new separate draft of digest for it.