Draft of CoE Digest #206 Q1 - Strider/Folco - Open until Sep 9th

[Manuel]

In order to contribute to this thread please follow these rules:

1) The thread will be open until Sep 9th.
2) There will be a maximum of one reply per forum user, and that reply cannot be edited. We want to actively avoid starting "flame wars", so please speak your peace, let others speak their peace, and that's it.
3) After the review period, the RC will carefully consider everyone's contributions, revise the draft as appropriate, and then the Digest will be published and official.

When can the abilities of either Folco Boffin and/or Strider be taken?

Despite the existence of two digests clarifying these two cards, there's been a big debate about the validity of these decisions, so we're trying to put and end to this debate here.

For reference, here is the text of the two cards:

Folco Boffin

Unique. Unless he is one of the starting characters, he may only be brought into play at his home site. All of his corruption checks are modified by +2. You may discard Folco at a Haven to play any Hobbit from your hand with his company.

Strider

Manifestation of Aragorn You may bring Aragorn II into play with Strider's company, removing Strider from the game and automatically transferring all cards on Strider to Aragorn II. +3 direct influence against the Rangers of the North faction. Tap Strider to search your discard pile for any one item, ally, or faction playable at his current site—the site must be in Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur. or The Shire.

There is very little information from ICE’s NetReps on these two cards, but ICE Digest #544 clarified that their abilities can be taken at any time that the player could normally play a resource, without counting against the one character that can normally be played during the Organization Phase:

ICE RULES DIGEST #544

12-01-1999 NetRep: Van Norton Source

QUERY 10

From: “Jean-Paul Keulen”
Subject: Folco -> Strider/Aragorn II

Quote from the Card of the Day archive:

A recent ruling on Folco’s ability from Ichabod: it can be done at anytime that a normal resource can be played, and does not count against the one character per turn rule.

Is the same true for Strider? Can I play Aragorn II with his company whenever I want, and can I bring in another character during organization phase?

Yes.

The Council of Elrond previously upheld this ruling in COE Digest #16:

CoE WEEKLY RULINGS/CLARIFICATIONS #16

NetRep: Brian Wong Source

QUERY 18

Does Folco Boffin’s ability (“You may discard Folco at a Haven to play any Hobbit from your hand with his company.”) override the normal rules about using only direct influence if your Wizard is out, unless the Wizard is at the site, in which case you can use general influence?

Yes. Card text overrides rules in situations of conflict.

Since this committee hasn’t found any basis in the rules to overturn these two digests, we’re upholding them and adding a clarification to the CRF for each of the cards.

[Theo]

This ruling is correct for Folco and incorrect for Strider.

Note that they have different text, so rulings on Folco do not apply to Strider without justification.

Here (again) are the aspects to consider for Strider:

1) The CotD (683) may be misleading. The only relevant previous message from Ichabod in the records was Dec 30, 1996 (more than 1 year before CotD 683):

>3. Falco Boffin - Does his special ability count towards the one character per turn rule, or is it considered like A Chance Meeting?

If you are asking about Folco Boffin, it is like A Chance Meeting.

Folco's ability has different text than Strider's, namely, an action active condition for the effect (uses the template "New explicit allowance: pay cost X to cause effect Y," with no previous rules regarding paying X to cause Y). Because the player is allowed to play resource actions during their resource turn, this action (like playing A Chance Meeting) can be taken at any time during a player's turn, and thus is not beholden to the one character per turn limitation for the standard character play action allowed by the organization phase rules.
2) Van was incorrect about Strider. Strider's ability is a modification of the existing rules on playing characters, not a new resource action. The parallel card here is not the play of A Chance Meeting, but having Bad Company in play. It would be ludicrous to claim that A Bad Company would allow the player to play Orc and Troll characters any time they want and without counting against character limitations. Just as A Bad Company is relaxing a restriction on Orc and Troll play, Strider is relaxing the restriction on manifestation play. As a modification of an existing rules restriction, Strider's ability does not circumvent any other play requirements for a character. CRF: "If it isn't there, it isn't there." People make mistakes---what seems likely is that Van didn't want to contradict Ichabod without understanding. But time gives us an opportunity to make amends.

This committee being unable to find "any basis in the rules to overturn," despite having been previously provided the above points, demonstrates a lack of fitness to guide the community, and hints at a preference (intentional or not) for their own view of the game and metagame over the work of ICE.

[dirhaval]

Both texts, Folco and Strider, have to be different especially if you discard Strider first so goes the controlled events. It would saying, " I want sweet ice tea in this cup and not regular tea." You do not dump the tea then to put in the sugar for only the sugar will be in the cup.

Strider allows the keeping in play of cards that were on Strider. I see that the card texts are outside the rules to play characters since "introducing the character price" already has been paid and are not card texts treated like resource-like actions? That is activated during your turn as the resource player? I would say the Character Rules Judge looks the other way when either ability is used.

I have no problem what was ruled in the first thread on this topic.

Lastly, it appears that the Hobbit Folco delivers is under no influence; that is if Folco was a follower, then the new Hobbit is not anyone's follower and will free direct influence to Folco's controller such as to influence an opponent at a Haven.

[Konrad Klar]

Cards that allow for playing of some characters are not (necessarily) cards that cause a playing of some character.
Bad Company does not cause a playing of Orc or Troll. In first place there must be a situation that allows for playing a character to use Bad Company's allowance.

Someone may have in play Bad Company and never play Orc or Troll. Someone may have in play Strider and never play Aragorn II. And someone may have in play Folco Boffin and never play other Hobbit.

There is a special allowance needed for Orc, Troll character. There is no a special allowance needed for a playing of Aragorn II or Hobbit.
Bad Company allows for Orc, Troll character. Strider does not allow for Aragorn II, Folco Boffin does not allow for other Hobbits.

Strider allows for Aragorn II in special case - when Strider (manifestation of Aragorn II) is in play.

Player does not discard, does not remove Strider from game to play Aragorn II. There is no moment when Strider is not in game and Aragorn II is not in play yet. Removing Strider from game, transferring his item to Aragorn II and playing Aragorn II are joint (simultaneous) operations.

[DamienX207]

I can say quite sincerely that nobody on the RC has an agenda when it comes to Strider. ICE's NetRep ruled it this way. We have found 0 evidence to overturn that, and 0 evidence has been provided to overturn it. Lobbing personal attacks is just so unnecessary and absurd and I personally find Theo's post reprehensible.

Van was incorrect about Strider. Strider's ability is a modification of the existing rules on playing characters, not a new resource action. The parallel card here is not the play of A Chance Meeting, but having Bad Company in play. It would be ludicrous to claim that A Bad Company would allow the player to play Orc and Troll characters any time they want and without counting against character limitations. Just as A Bad Company is relaxing a restriction on Orc and Troll play, Strider is relaxing the restriction on manifestation play. As a modification of an existing rules restriction, Strider's ability does not circumvent any other play requirements for a character. CRF: "If it isn't there, it isn't there." People make mistakes---what seems likely is that Van didn't want to contradict Ichabod without understanding. But time gives us an opportunity to make amends.

Theo has provided literally 0 evidence to back up this claim. Literally none provided. He is arguing that ICE's NetRep should be overturned, and yet accuses the RC of wanting to push our "own view of the game and metagame over the work of ICE" - when that is literally what he is doing?? WE are paying attention to ICE's NetRep and work. WE are the ones analyzing the templating (e.g. Strider's "brings into play" is much closer to ACM's "bring into play" than Bad Company's "play") for the sake of the community. To come in and accuse us of doing literally what you yourself are doing is such an absurd projection.

Anyway, I don't normally chime in here since this is a venue for community feedback, but I would ask, yet again, to please be respectful with said feedback. Theo's post crosses that line for me.

[Manuel]

Thanks everyone for your contributions. The RC will study them carefully and come up with a final digest soon.