Council of Elrond

Thank you for offering recognition for my help (presumably for helping the Remaster Project with references for Spanish translations of cards not originally printed in Spanish). The description of the Official Cards Database does not mention the translation work, and I would like to request that my name be taken off of the contributors list.

For the record, while I am enthusiastic for displaying the latest versions of ICE-printed cards (following CoL rules) and incorporating still-relevant CRF errata, my opinion is that the CoE modifications disrespect ICE's work and necessitate a label other than MECCG. I am grateful for both the representation and practicality of sharing the "changes guide," which I will hope can help someone work on a similar project in more alignment with ICE's work.

First of all, I’ve moved the post to a new topic with your opinion because, as a forum moderator, I don’t think it’s appropriate to clutter such an important post with this conversation, which promises to be interesting.

This is the official CoE database, not a replacement for ICE’s official work. Anyone interested in CoE’s work can use it officially, and those who aren’t, don’t have to.

Theo, as you mentioned, you helped translate the cards into Spanish, but your name will gladly be removed. I thought it was the right thing to do, not that it would bother you. Although on previous occasions you had reminded me that I had forgotten to give you credit.

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What you’re saying is very offensive, even if you don’t realize it, as usual. It’s possible to express an opinion without being disrespectful:

my opinion is that the CoE modifications disrespect ICE's work and necessitate a label other than MECCG.

I’ve spent the last years of my life dedicating countless hours of work for the legacy of ICE: meccg.com, play.meccg.com, digests, remaster, database, CoE forums and website, promoting the game, etc.

I’ve had to endure hundreds of polite but offensive words like these, which for some reason you then make an effort to clarify that you didn’t mean to offend, but you constantly do. Myself and other current CoE members have tried multiple times to approach you, without success.

For you to tell ME that my work is disrespectful to ICE crosses the red line of your polite but offensive words. Please refrain from making these kinds of accusations, which also violate the rules of this forum, and which we always pretend we haven’t read to avoid giving you a warning. (And an abuse of power!! How bad we are!!)

This is a community effort; the logical thing would be to help make it perfect. And if you don’t want to help, perhaps you’d be more comfortable in your Council of Meduseld, where everything is how you like it, and where I haven’t once gone to disrespect you.

To this community:

I’m sorry to say things like this, but I’ve spent years unjustly enduring certain individuals who constantly cross the line. There are many people who truly put in the effort and care. We always think about what Mr. Coleman Charlton and Mike Reynolds would want. We’re not perfect, but constantly insulting us isn’t without consequence. Especially when, as CoE members, we always have to put on a good face. Well, no, it’s over—we are people just like you, doing the best we can, and we don’t have to put up with these things.

Best regards.

Theo,

The current CoE team is doing a huge effort in providing the community with certain tools that they didn't have until now: card database, official rules with thoroughly explained digests, etc. It's a LOT of work involving LOTS of hours dedicated to this task, and while I think most people appreciate it, I understand the fact that some individuals may not agree with our approach, as it's impossible to please everyone.

Given the sheer amount of work we put into this when we get absolutely nothing in return, I find it difficult to affirm that we disrespect ICE's work. On the opposite, we are trying to honor it in the best way that we can, but the fact that our way isn't your way doesn't mean we don't love this game as much as you do.

I've been playing this game since 1998, and I remember myself always complaining about certain things not getting done, like rules questions that are forever unanswered, and a large etc. Back in 2022 I decided that I would stop complaining and instead take a step forward and start doing those things myself. Elections were held and we got a surprisingly huge support from the community. I found others who were on the same boat and we formed a nice team that I'm very proud of. By now, I feel like we are enough entrusted by the community to accomplish all of these projects and I'm confident that most people agree with our vision for the health of this community. I'm completely aware that some might disagree with them, but as I said, we can't please everyone.

Also, I've noticed that there are certain people that actually enjoy the confrontation/debate and who can never be pleased. I try to avoid that people as much as I can because it takes away my time and my energy to invest on actual things that I could do for the CoE.

And of course, as Kodi said, if people don't like what we're doing they can just ignore the CoE rules and play in whatever way they want. What the CoE is offering is a common ground for everyone who wants to play CoE tournaments and CoE related stuff in general. Now, if we were to name this a different game (CoECCG or whatever) it would be only to please people like you, which I believe is a very small minority. In fact, as far as I know, it's only you (of course there might be others I don't know of) From what we know, most people prefer to just call it MECCG and assume that the game had to evolve because 1) there were a lot of holes in the rules and 2) present times need more modern tools like website, database, etc, and those modern tools have to reflect the latest changes.

And btw, as we speak, the biggest online tournament this game has ever seen is happening. Worlds will be taking place in Hamburg next month and I think it's safe to say that they'll have the biggest attendance in many many years. To me this means that the health of this game and its community is growing stronger, and if you take into account what was the state of the community 5 or 10 years ago the difference is even more evident. So mayyyybe we aren't doing so bad after all

Long story short: your opinion is respectable and I think I know where it comes from, but I think you should be careful when doing certain affirmations, even if it is in a polite way, especially when there are people involved that literally investing their lifetime into this.

I fully understand that everyone has a different opinion on this matter, but the reality (facts, not feelings or opinions) indicates that the game is better now than a few years ago, as can be seen by the number of players involved in tournaments in person or online.

As Manuel has said, it is not possible to please everyone all the time, but as long as things are done with good intentions and the objective data indicate that the game is in good health, we will consider that the course is the right one.

Theo wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 1:18 am For the record, while I am enthusiastic for displaying the latest versions of ICE-printed cards (following CoL rules) and incorporating still-relevant CRF errata, my opinion is that the CoE modifications disrespect ICE's work and necessitate a label other than MECCG.

Kodi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:26 am I’m sorry to say things like this, but I’ve spent years unjustly enduring certain individuals who constantly cross the line. There are many people who truly put in the effort and care. We always think about what Mr. Coleman Charlton and Mike Reynolds would want.

Coleman has been at Lure 2 times. Not only on site, but also as his driver i had the chance to talk a lot with him about MECCG. He is so proud of MECCG not only because some people still play the game, especially because some real enthusiasts spent a lot of time in developing new tings such as Dream Cards or new game variants and still bother about rules and tournaments and so many other things. He still loves his baby, because it is alive - which means developing. And I know that Pete Fenlon feels the same.
So i am sure Coleman and Pete feel nothing but respect for all the efforts and dedication and love, for how the COE (and others) care about MECCG nowadays.

Kodi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:26 am Theo, as you mentioned, you helped translate the cards into Spanish, but your name will gladly be removed. I thought it was the right thing to do, not that it would bother you. Although on previous occasions you had reminded me that I had forgotten to give you credit.

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Yes, I understand and did thank you in my previous post for offering recognition. Thank you again for understanding or if not understanding at least being responsive and removing the reference to me from this project description that does not mention translations.

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Kodi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:26 am Please refrain from making these kinds of accusations, which also violate the rules of this forum

What rules of this forum are being violated? (and by whom?)

If anyone has recommendations for how to better "give your opinion honestly and explain your thinking and reasoning," I am only too happy to edit my post. I tried to state my opinion plainly and without malice, for the sake of explaining what prompted my request. I also expressed sincere appreciation for the work that does not alter ICE's cards without ICE's text. While I stated an opinion that it is disrespectful to ICE to pass off their cards with others' text ideas, it sounds like you---Kodi---think this is respectful; let's "agree to disagree." Or is there simply no way to state disagreement that would be acceptable?

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wrote:On the opposite, we are trying to honor it in the best way that we can, but the fact that our way isn't your way doesn't mean we don't love this game as much as you do.

I understand that and I regret that there is not more possibility to reconcile our opinions or strive for betterment.

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I am glad to see Kodi's platform bringing so many players together, and the time I've devoted toward suggestions is only to further that trend. There are many more players not playing in CoE's current tournament. A course being good for some players does not mean it is necessarily without flaws or cannot be better for more players in some way. I would hope to put the deep investments of all to the furthest service.