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Post by dirhaval » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:04 am

This topic will hold specific rules and conditions for FATE.
Note that I have updated some threads, so any replies by others make sense when read in chronological order.

R001-Avatar cards can be used other than playing the avatar.
NEW. 09-2016
Before, I had a long explanation of not using the avatar card to untap the avatar.
That is deleted.
Now, the avatar card can be discarded to untap the avatar.

Now, the issue is what happens to the RW avatar cards during the Warlord phase.
Can a player untap his own Ringwraith when controlled by Lidless Eye? I say no for now.

If your avatar is in play and your deck as already exhausted, then the avatar card
can be played to be duplicate a normal sideboard manipulation of the avatar.
That is to either put one resource from the SB into the PD or 5 resources into the
DP from the SB. It will not be used to untap the avatar. I think it is unfair to untap
an avatar in this fashion late in the game. Just use And Forth He Hastened. Besides,
you will be having resources reserved in the SB anyway such as Black Council,
Doom of Choice during the second deck. Removing the avatar cards after first exhaustion
is unfair due to playing Sacrifice of Form and body checks on the Ringwraiths.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Fri May 09, 2014 4:27 am

R002 Gold Ring Manifestations

NEW 09-2016
A reply to this rule mentions having a global manifestation of gold rings between alignments, not within alignments.
That makes sense now. So any hero gold ring item is a manifestation of all minion gold ring items, vice versa.

I like to add to the direct contact between heros and minions.
Therefore, I decided that the gold ring items have manifestations.

Precious GR = Bright Gold Ring or Gleaming Gold Ring
Fair GR = Perfect Gold Ring or Gold Ring that Sauron fancies
Beautiful GR = Least of the Rings or A Little Gold Ring

For example,
Sauron can influence or steal away a Precious Gold Ring held by Gimli
at Bandit Lair by playing a Bright Gold Ring.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Fri May 09, 2014 4:28 am


The magic rings are manifestations too.

MR of Nature = MR of Savagery

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Fri May 09, 2014 5:16 am

R004 Agents can only affect a player from another Group during the Move phase if the hazard effect targets a resource, not a character.

UPDATE 09-2016
Adding clarification.
A player whose resource is being affected may act to defend. If Lord Denethor is doing nothing in the game and Necromancer plays
Twisted Tales using Surion against Boromir at Minas Tirith when Necromancer is facing the Northern Waste division, then Lord
Denethor can play I Know Much About You to cancel agent action. This is similar to using Twilight to defend your own environments.

UPDATED 10-2016
During testing, I think this is the right way. It is very troubling if Elwen plays Will Not Come Down on Morwen controlling Nenselde The Winglid
that can discard the ally and send the character to hand. thus, a character should not be allowed to be a target in a cross-Group action.
Also, this forces Lord Denethor to clog his hand to fetch I Know Much About You. Now I have Necromancer with many agents. I think now
to spread the use of agents so to bombard Lord Denethor with agent actions. The first action will be cancelled, but the second and third....

PREVIOUS & Removed
For example,
Is it possible for Necromancer in Eriador Division to play Twisted Tales during the Move phase on the Blue Mountain Dwarves,
played by Balin, when Denethor is his resource player? I will say Yes since the hazard is targeting the resource and not on BALIN's characters.

If you want to have the agent to act in the Move phase on a character then it has to be the resource player in your Group that Turn.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Sun May 11, 2014 6:46 pm

If you reply about a rule, please note in your reply the number I give it so we can easily discuss the same issue.

Players may blatantly work together in terms of transferring resources through influence attempts.

For example,
Cirdan can play a precious gold ring on a low mind elf, which are at Grey Havens just so
Gandalf can have his avatar influence away the precious gold ring, which Gandalf has in his hand.
Cirdan may even reduce his free general influence for this influence attempt.

Such an act I think is already allowed, but I like to state it openly so there is no anger when it happens.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 12, 2014 5:48 pm

interesting rules.
R001 - nice solution, but elaborate on the unfairness of untapping, as it seems to me 90% of the decks have an equal amount of avatar copies. Removing them is a personal choice which also gives advantages in card management. In DC games we find that the untap avatar option really promotes active games and is quite needed in hightly avatar-centered decks. Yes tapping out is an important hazard mechanism, which is weakened a bit by using avatar copies to untap, but this in turn leads more to using hazards that single out defenders trying to wound them. All in all, it both diversifies and speeds up the game (which in 12 turn FATE decks can't hurt :-)

R002/3. - I like this rule! Perhaps simply make all gold rings manifestations of each other? So if you have a Fair Ring you can try to influence somebody's Precious Ring. Are the roll numbers that important?

R005 - making influence attempts costs you a turn though and you need be untapped. This seems a waste, perhaps you'd care for special influence attempt rules between guys of the same team (as with the GI reduction you mention).
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Tue May 13, 2014 12:14 am

Thank you for the reply.
R001-Please remember I try to use as many different cards as I can in all the decks.
The reason I say it is unfair to untap with an avatar card after the first exhaustion
is that I feel it is unfair to the cards that can instead be used to untap.
Yes, that is right. I am an advocate for the cards :)
I have no problem with folks voting otherwise to use the avatar card for untapping
after the first exhaustion.

Now, one can say the avatar card can be used to either untap or act in lieu of sideboard manipulation.
Why not just untap and tap the avatar to manipulate the sideboard?
That might sound good, but there are times when tapping is bad such as a passive condition
taking place may be such as Fireworks or Wizard's Cart.
Either way, I am fine with any option to use the avatar card. I just wanted to start somewhere
and what I proposed is the most limited.

With all 40 players at once playing I rather keep the distinct manifestations. However, with fewer
players such as 12 I am fine with no limit on manifestations of gold ring items.
The roll numbers were only used to find similar numbers on the other alignment.

R005-Yes, it costs you a turn, but I rather have Gandalf with a wounded Sam and tapped Frodo stay at Grey Havens
then move to Ost-in-Edhil to play a gold ring item. This rule is to save time and lives and will be seen late
in the second playdeck. Besides, I like to see some assistance from others since I learned a Hall of Fire only
effects the specific haven it is played on. I rather not add to the help or hurting of the influence attempt
since one must spend a turn in the attempt as you said and the other has to may be take the risk with reduced GI for a turn.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Tue May 13, 2014 12:24 am

R006-A player may influence multiple resources in one attempt if the attempt is on a character
or an item.

For example,
Cirdan can influence away Arwen from Gandalf even if Arwan carries a permanent-event
and Cirdan can play the same event as long as Cirdan-player has that same resource in hand too with Arwen.
So Cirdan-player makes a character influence attempt, shows Arwen only.
If the attempt fails, Arwen is discarded by Cirdan. If it succeeds, then the permanent-event
in Cirdan's hand must be played on Arwen if Cirdan chooses. Multiple events can be played
that match those on Arwen before the attempt.

Can Cirdan play a hazard permanent-event on Arwen that is on her at that time? Yes.
Why is that good? Cirdan might want to add more corruption to corrupt her.
But he must play all the hazards that are on her during the moment of influence.
Not so with the resources.

What about items with permanent-events such as Barrow-Blade?
The influencer must have all the permanent-events of the item in hand, and play them
at once immediately after the successful attempt. The other weapon/events are discarded.
A failed attempt only discards the weapon. I do not want to give the influencer a method
to discard cards easily.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Sun May 18, 2014 10:28 pm

Updates: 01 2015-03-04

News of Doom can not be played by a White Player.
That hazard event will be played by the Lidless Eye during the Warlord Phase.
However, if the Warlord phase does not happen, then the hazard can be played
during the Power Decks by anyone.

This rule will prevent cheapening the use of the hazard if played at the beginning of the game.
I was thinking to only allow it played during the Councils.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Tue May 20, 2014 11:54 pm

Restrictions due to Eliminated Cards

I have been building the hazard decks for the heroes. It is fun.
I was thinking the following:
If the players of a Division alignment (Heros, the other guys) have defeated
three of the same non-unique creatures, then those players cannot face
another copy of that creature for the Avatar Decks (start until end of Councils).
If a player has defeated three of the same non-unique creature then that player
cannot face another copy of the same creature anymore during the game.
Any card that has been eliminated from a player still counts towards his selection
of cards if that player is in the Power Deck Phase.
That is if Ren has two Assassins killed from his Avatar Deck, then he can at most have
one copy of Assassin for his Power deck.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Fri May 23, 2014 4:58 pm

R010-Playing hazards on resources not controlled by you or those of your opponent.

I think we all know I cannot play Seek Without Success on a face-up agent not controlled by me.
But what about Trouble on All Borders on a faction controlled by someone far away?
That is can Elrond play that hazard on Orcs of Moria (controlled by Balrog) when Elrond's hazard opponent(s)
for that part of the game are located in Harad even if a Sun-lands minion controlled by a Harad player is at Moria?
I would say yes, but only since the hazard can effect the minion. Else the answer is no. This is why.

The hazard on those orcs will be a bane for the controlling player and not for those in Harad,
even though Theoden in Rohan will get a boost of support for minions coming down from Anduin.
I feel that is is unfair for a player to support another by using his own hazards so the other
player has room in his deck for other hazards.

In summary: If you play a hazard in FATE, then it can only directly affect the resources/characters of the opponents'
resources in your Group at that time or to that of your Main Hazard Opponent.

For example,
Elrond and Witch-king are in the same Division. Both players are facing the other side of the Harad Division.
Elrond can play that hazard during any of the four turns facing that division against all players' factions
of the Harad Division. He can only play that hazard elsewhere only against a Witch-king's faction when Elrond
is the hazard opponent of the Witch-king.
Clarification. Aradagor is also in Elrond's Division. Elrond cannot play the hazard on Aradagor's factions
during these four turns against the Harad Division.

This rule was born from letting Radagast play Old Enemies on Elrond's Eagles Watch and Galadriels's Ents of Fangorn.
Radagast can only play that hazard on those factions when facing the Division of those two players or against
a player that will immediately be affected by that hazard. So Radagast will place the hazard in his sideboard.

NOTE: This rule might change 180 degrees though. It is under consideration. If I change it without replies, then I will
edit this message.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Sun May 25, 2014 1:35 am

R011-Items playable at a dragon-lair turns after the dragon has been eliminated.

UPDATE 09-2016, 10-2016
This has been on my mind for awhile. I will modify the rule in terms of hoard longevity.
There will be a limit on the turns the site has hoard status. The limit on the items playable will be kept as written before.
Now, the hoard status disappears one full turn after the dragon is killed.
For example, Alatar visits a Dragon at Home alone. He uses Old Thrush and Sacrifice of Form for the slaughter.
That site has hoard status for two turns (killed on Turn 12, hoard until Turn 14 start). This givens everyone possible
one turn to visit the site. And agents to stalk. This will scare heroes away somewhat, since the heroes will be vulnerable at the site.
But that adds to CvCC, which is good. The heroes have the advantage of wizards using SoF. So far in 10 turns,
two wizards killed dragons in this fashion. This should anger minion players enough for CvCC. Alatar killed
Khuzdrepa turns after Throkmaw the Vain failed with Roused faction. That dragon player knows he needs
to act fast to kill Alatar the next turn at Thundercleft.

MECCG removes the hoard status of a dragon's lair at the end of the turn when that dragon has been eliminated.
That does not seem fun for FATE.

Instead, items can be played with site's natural stats before elimination. However, the status will revert to MECCG's rule
when 2 x Dragon creature manifestation MP in CP items are played.

For example,
Bairanax at Home is killed. His creature MP is 3. That means up to 6 CP of items (or items only playable at the site) can be played
until MECCG's rule is invoked. Then no other item can be played at the site. Dragon-scales is allowed, but must fit within the CP window.

This will allow a race and conflict to move to the lair to play items that has no dragon AA. Almost every dragon manifestation hazard
is expected to be played. Some hero companies are built to slay dragons. Thus, every 3-4 turns one dragon is expected to be killed.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Mon May 26, 2014 4:28 pm

R012-Minion agents barred from The Shire until specific requirements are met.

Minions agents cannot move into a site in The Shire until one of the following is met:
*Storage of News of the Shire by you or one of your friends
*Storage of Kill All But Not the Halflings
*Stinker is controlled by a black player at the place of Sauron (Dol Guldur)

I was making the Necromancer deck with all his diplomat agents and felt that it would
be unfair to have the minion hobbit agents (Ted, Lobelia) spoil the fun so quickly.
Sauron did not find out about the Shire until he heard news about it.

UPDATE 10-2016
I was thinking of allowing a Black Player to play Stinker. This will be okay since Gandalf has a character
ready to influence away dark elves. This rule forces a Black to try to finds news of the Shire, which will help
elves not get slaughtered by Khamual having a party in Brown Lands.

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by Vastor Peredhil » Mon May 26, 2014 5:33 pm

I been having the same thoughts for some DC events, where hobbits are stronger, but still suck when pilfered earyl or times and again ;)

so there are people reading this

yours Nicolai

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Re: 112-Fate-Rules

Post by dirhaval » Wed May 28, 2014 4:57 am

R013-Arkenstone cannot be stored.

The effect of increasing the mind of all dwarves by one with this item is extreme in FATE.
What to do?

I was thinking of this increase only applies to dwarves in the same region or adjacent region/site
of the item. Since the item cannot be stored, then the minion item main use will be
to discard a hero dwarf, which will be affected by the stone. So this rule seems workable.

A minion might be nasty by moving to a region with a dwarf-hold into a "event site" such
as Wonderous Maps to make that dwarf-hold bleak.

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