Worlds 2014 - Tourney reports

[Smaug]

Hi guys, greetings from San Francisco. I go back to cologne in some hours after having some nice days in eugene, where mark hosted me, thx again mark. We tplayed there with chess clock, it worked, butOf coursehat might belöst representative because both our decks are pretty fast. My report will follow when i am back Home, it is really nasty to write english on a german language based tablet. in a nutshell: It was a great tournament denkend, and congrats to joe winning the title with a fallen pallando !!!!!!!, wow, only fallen sarruman is harder. Of course he had the luck You need to become WC, but that is always like his! I am Of course a Bit disapointed with 3rd place after winning all other tournaments of weekend and in Addition loosing Not a Single Game until the final game Of the final
And even 0-6 sounds high it was a very close game, especially i could afforded a 2-4 defeat to become WC for the third Time.
Drawin One Of My 2 sideboarded ires Of the East until joes Last turn would very probably ensured a 2-4 and Event On My Last turn i had a 1-5 quite easy in Hand to become second, but who cares i risked of everything and so lost finally even the 2nd place to Brian.
Nevertheless i guess all 5 Top Players (Wolfgang played as well a very good tournament, very unluckly Not reaching the final) could have won, Brian and Mark both we're a Bit unlucky against me, therefore My luck left me completly against joe.

Cheers

Heiner

[Goblin King]

Doesn't the Council of Lorien tournament coordinator packet cover when a player is taking too long and eating up the clock?
It reads:
22) Players That Stall - If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain, or if an opponent is believed to be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitivity to the time limit, the player can petition the tournament coordinator to observe the game. If the coordinator observes that the opponent is stalling more than is what is reasonable and necessary, the coordinator can call the gamin favor of the non-stalling player. In the Swiss System format, the player receives the maximum tournament points for the capacity of the deck.

[Sauron]

Doesn't the Council of Lorien tournament coordinator packet cover when a player is taking too long and eating up the clock?
It reads:
22) Players That Stall - If an opponent is believed to be stalling for purposeful gain, or if an opponent is believed to be stalling through a lack of respect for or sensitivity to the time limit, the player can petition the tournament coordinator to observe the game. If the coordinator observes that the opponent is stalling more than is what is reasonable and necessary, the coordinator can call the gamin favor of the non-stalling player. In the Swiss System format, the player receives the maximum tournament points for the capacity of the deck.

No coordinator is willing to enforce this rule. Hence no penalties are ever awarded. Basically they don't want to "alienate" the remaining players, but on the other hand they're losing other players because of it, so it's a lose lose situation . I've had this issue for a long time, and it's one of the very reasons I've more or less left the community.

[Mordakai]

Not to mention that we are so few that most of the tournament coordinators are also players, and at that moment they are at their own game

[Goblin King]

Well, I think there were several spectators with the knowledge and ability to act as a judge during this particular tournament, but I can see how that might be an issue at smaller gatherings.
Is someone who is appointed judge in a game actually going to be afraid to use his ability to pass judgement? I hope not!
The judge is there representing the legacy of the game.
Maybe there needs to be an agreement to this effect at the beginning of a World Championship or Euro Championship. Any players called on to be a judge of a rule must do so with the understanding they are protecting the integrity of the game.
But then, people can always second guess the judge, say he or she was biased etc.
So I guess we are back to the chess clock idea.
Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea at all.

[Mordakai]

The chess clock is a good idea, but as I said before, there are some phases of the turn that are 'shared' among both players, like the m/h phase. Rules should be well stablished to avoid enforcing the use of the clock but still failing to achieve its goal. It would be awful to see a player stalling during the opponent m/h phase and claiming that his turns take less time that his opponent's.

[Goblin King]

The clock can be used through the movement hazard phase. It only requires clear communication between opponents.
Example:
Player 1: Party One of Gandalf alone at Rivendel. He is not moving. Hazard limit of two. <clicks clock>
Player 2: I play Doors of Night and ...
Player 1: I have a response.
Player 2: ok <changes the clock>
Player 1: plays Twilight. <Changes the Clock>

Player 2: I play Great Secrets Buried. Players resolve the hazard card. After resolve he changes the clock.
Player 1: Party 2 is Elrond and company in Moria and moving to Goblin Gate. Etc.

People can still stall with shuffling etc

[Muzgash]

I'm not sure how it is with you guys, but usually when I play the decisions that eat up the most time are organizing companies + deciding where they are moving. I think that is the best time to use the clock, because during that time your opponent isn't really doing anything. Just give the active player a fixed amount of time for that (5 minutes max maybe?), and I think the games will flow a lot better. This would also reward players who know their deck and the map well. There are definitely other parts of the turn that eat up time, but that one, at least in my experience, seems to be the main culprit.

[Mordakai]

The clock can be used through the movement hazard phase. It only requires clear communication between opponents.
Example:
Player 1: Party One of Gandalf alone at Rivendel. He is not moving. Hazard limit of two. <clicks clock>
Player 2: I play Doors of Night and ...
Player 1: I have a response.
Player 2: ok <changes the clock>
Player 1: plays Twilight. <Changes the Clock>

Player 2: I play Great Secrets Buried. Players resolve the hazard card. After resolve he changes the clock.
Player 1: Party 2 is Elrond and company in Moria and moving to Goblin Gate. Etc.

People can still stall with shuffling etc

Too much clock changes, methinks. The game cannot be substantially changed by the inclusion of the clock. The less clock changes, the less possibilities of mistake, the most usefull the clock is, As soon as a mistake is done and neither of the players notice it untill a turn later, all the system failed and cannot be reconstructed for that game.

I'm not sure how it is with you guys, but usually when I play the decisions that eat up the most time are organizing companies + deciding where they are moving. I think that is the best time to use the clock, because during that time your opponent isn't really doing anything. Just give the active player a fixed amount of time for that (5 minutes max maybe?), and I think the games will flow a lot better. This would also reward players who know their deck and the map well. There are definitely other parts of the turn that eat up time, but that one, at least in my experience, seems to be the main culprit.

Org phase is probably the longest one, but the problem here is wasting time. If you control the time during org phase only, then I can stall during site phase without any problems.

There are also decks that are more time-comsuming than others, no matter how you play it. If you have to manage 4 companies, it will take you a lot more to end your Org phase than if you have only one. FW decks usually play more things during Org phase than Hero decks, and that should not be punished.

I'm not totally sure about a good solution. The chess clock sounds good, but how to use it should be carefully ruled and tested before stablishing as a requisite for official tournaments. The same should be done with other aspects of the game, as dice rolls (official smartphone app, specific dice for each tournament, not allowing you own dice or whatever...) and maybe other things. Enforcing any rule of this kind would be walking on thin ice, the best solution would be of course that everybody adhere to a gentlemen playing code, but that not always happens, that's why we are discussing here.

[Vastor Peredhil]

As I see it, it is more a lack of playing and knowing the deck

most people that play online, get faster, I know it is not for everyone, but if you want to play a deck at a tourney you better know it inside out?!

that way playing gets faster, and then it is a matter of managing your thinking faster!

and yes we still need a clock for 1-2 players out there who never get it

[Muzgash]

Org phase is probably the longest one, but the problem here is wasting time. If you control the time during org phase only, then I can stall during site phase without any problems.

My comment was more geared towards people that take a lot of time because they make decisions slowly, not to gain an advantage. If a player is deliberately slow playing in an obvious way they should be given a game loss at the minimum. That's not the kind of player I would be worried about alienating, no matter how small the community is. I'm more inclined to believe, as Vastor said, that players just haven't logged enough hours with the deck they brought.

I wouldn't worry too much about use of a game clock putting people off. In other games I've played use of a game clock makes the playing experience more enjoyable for everyone, and even adds an additional layer of excitement. I'd even recommend it for casual games. In the end, the clock makes games significantly shorter, and who doesn't like fitting in more games in a day?

[Shapeshifter]

I mostly agree with what Muzgash said before. I don't believe that there are players in our community that stall on purpose. From my experience you usually encounter four different ways of time delaying.

1. A player ist not very experienced with the game, yet. This shouldn't be much of a matter as experienced players should win against those type of players anyway.
2. There is a lot of combat including CvCC or there are a lot of companies moving. This takes it's time and there is nothing we could do about that.
3. A player does not know his deck very well but performs it quite good, though this takes a lot of time for thinking about what to do next. This may be a problem for other players in tournaments.
4. A players is very experienced, knows everything about his deck but still takes a lot time for thinking.

For numbers 3 and 4 a chess clock solution might be worth testing. I would, however, limit this to the organization phase as I see in this phase the most potential to stop time delaying.

From my point of view there is usually not much of an advantage for one or the other player if one of them is stalling. It could be a major problem for One Ring decks, though. It can be hell if you know that you will need 4 or 5 turns to dunk and your opponent is thinking, and thinking, and ...

Personally I don't feel very eager to test the chess clock but I wouldn't mind to test it if a majority agrees with it. The best place to test this is maybe LURE.

(Btw, could somebody with mod rights move this discussion to it's own thread at the appropriate place, please?)

[Bandobras Took]

From my point of view there is usually not much of an advantage for one or the other player if one of them is stalling. It could be a major problem for One Ring decks, though. It can be hell if you know that you will need 4 or 5 turns to dunk and your opponent is thinking, and thinking, and . . .

I've been on the receiving end of that, and due to my inexperience, I had no idea what was going on.

[dirhaval]

What I try to do for my own sake is to make a decision quickly on what to discard or
fetch. Too many good cards in hand? Tough. Discard one and move on. Be like Aragorn II
with the palantir.

[Goblin King]

Let's be clear here. The original post is not talking about new players who don't know their deck. The original post is talking about stalling in the World Final rounds. Mark is asking about having those games clocked.
The concern is that someone can play a squatter deck with a hazard strategy that can shut their opponent down for two or three turns. Then, by playing slowly, you ensure that time is called and there have only been three turns on the table and the squatter has all the resources on the board because the other deck was roadblocked for two of the three turns.
Other card games have experienced this archetype of play, as stated. Has Magic The Gathering turned to clocks to solve this issue in their tournaments? If so, I'd like to see their rules. Really, the rules for clocks are simple and it is not a hard adjustment to just hit a clock during the hazard phase and at the end of your turn. Play a few rounds of speed chess with your local chess club and you will be a professional at hitting that clock.