World Championship Mode - possible changes: no deck changing for Finals

[thorondor]

each time after Wolrds opinions are getting louder in order to make a few changes to the way how Worlds is played nowadays. Also so this year at castle Stahleck.

I was asked by Patric to bring this to the general attention here, and maybe to a proposal for a decision by the COE later, if there is agreement that some changes are needed.


proposal: the option of playing a different deck in the Finals is available no longer.

Semi Finals is played on Saturady during the day usually, Finals on Sunday. For players, that made it to the final 4, it is a lot of work to change the decks, or at least to make changes, as they feel needed to be competitive also in the finals. They end up on Saturday night spending a lot of time tweaking their decks, while others are playing fun tournaments, visit the city or go for a nice dinner.
Another point: for not so established players, that made it to the Finals, its even harder to compete in the Finals, being not so experienced with the favorite deck types, that are often seen in Finals.

I just wanted to start this, after i have been asked to do so. I hope i reflected correctly what Patric wanted to express. But i am sure he will make an appearance here soon

[thorondor]

It was also discussed to skip Finals completely. The winner of the GenOpp is World Champion.

[Patric]

Hi Wolfgang,

this is a Good sum up of what I wrote to you
Of course I can live with both options:
Winner of Saturday is automatically winner of Worlds
(This year Kodi was 1. Place after day one and first place after the final four).
Or we still play a final four but keep our decks without changing anything!

Of course I love competition but I also like to spend time with the community which is one of the most urgent reasons for still playing this game.

But when I’m forced to adjust my deck again at night…it’s not so much fun for me.

I hope we can identify a world champion with less effort for the four finalists. And keep concentrating on the fun part like drinking a beer together etc.

Best regards,

Patric


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[Smaug]

Hi, ich bin anderer Meinung als Patric und dafür den jetzigen Modus beizubehalten, nur dass Final four kürt aus meiner Sicht den verdienten Weltmeister,. BEim Halbfinale spielt ja oft genug der 1 nicht gegen späteren 2, 3 und 4 und Losglück entscheidet zumindest zum Teil wer Weltmeister wird. Ein gute und damit auch einer Weltmeisterschaft würdige zeitintensive Vorbereitung dagegen zahlt sich primär im Finale aus, spezielle Finaldecks vorher erstellen und intensiv gegen starke Gegner play testen, über Wochen und Monate regelmäßig spielen und an online Turnieren teilnehmen. All das hat Kodi gemacht und es hat sich verdientermaßen ausgezahlt! Im Halbfinale hat er noch etwas unglücklich gegen mich verloren, im Finale dagegen dann zwar knapp aber verdient 33-30 gewonnen und dass nicht mit einem der Standard Winner Decks, die Patric oder auch ich ja so gerne spielen, sondern mit einem zwar guten aber vor allem auch überraschenden Deck, der er im Vorfeld viel getestet haben muss, da es schwer gut zu spielen ist, vor allem vom richtigen Timing her. Tukisch Blood gegen Call of Home, promptings gegen roadblock und Elronds Vilya falls elfsong zu spät kommt oder weg geschossen wird und nicht zuletzt das Timing im entscheidenden letzten Zug, auf den alles ankommt bei dem Deck. Er hat es hingekommen, chappo, und die Gegner haben wegen des Überraschungseffektrs Fehler gemacht, die man gegen die beliebten Standarddecks eher nicht so schnell macht, auch wenn man wenig Spielpraxis hat, da man diese Decks ja kennt. Ich zumindest habe vergessen, im gesamten Spiel bei great Road das doppelte an Karten zu ziehen und mit many sorrows elfsong viel eher wegzuschießen, ich wollte warten, bis ich die Lady wegbekomme, habe dass dann aber dummerweise in der MHP gemacht als der bane noch nicht auf dem Tisch lag (noch ein spielfehler) und prompt hat kodi sie recycelt. Dann habe ich statt call of home mir eine Lure Karte geholt, noch ein Fehler, hätte ich Elrond im letzten Zug mit Call of home heimgeschickt, hätte ich auch locker gewonnen. Insgesamt muss man daher sagen, in meinem Spiel gegen Kodi hat der zumindest in dem Spiel bessere Spieler gegen das aus meiner Sicht bessere Deck gewonnen, verdienter kann man kaum Weltmeister werden, oder?! Daher bitte unbefingt alles so lassen wie es ist, nur so konnten zum Beispiel Joe Biz mit seinem Trick Deck oder Marc Alvano mit (meinem Shape Shifter Radi Deck Weltmeister werden, durch den Innovations- und Überraschungseffekt und intensive Vorbereitung, die eines eines Weltmeisters würdig ist, in dem Sinne vg Heiner

[Patric]

Ich kann vielen zustimmen von dem was du sagst aber was würde dagegen sprechen das Final Four beizubehalten aber einfach die gleichen Decks zu spielen? Dann hast du diesen Auslosungseffekt nicht mehr und spielst halt mit dem gleichen Deck nochmal im Final Four.
Aber dieses neue Deck bauen (selbstverständlich auch im Vorfeld) und vor allen das anpassen auf die tatsächlichen Finalgegner ist für mich sehr zeitaufwendig und wie gesagt würde ich da die Zeit dann doch lieber beim gemeinschaftlichen Abendessen mit den anderen Spielern verbringen.


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[Smaug]

Hi Patric, das Problem ist ja, dass man gegen die starken Decks, egal ob fallen radagast steher oder Balrog Power decks nicht für das Halbfinale geeignete Gefahrenkarten tappen kann, da die Decks zu speziell sind und die Gefahrenkarten dann gegen viele andere "normale" Decks schwach bis nutzlos sind und man sich dann wahrscheinlich gar nicht fürs Finale qualifiziert. Ich finde es gut, wenn man das dann im Final 4 kann, nicht das "beste" Deck sondern der beste Spieler sollte Weltmeister werden, die Finaldecks kann bzw. sollte man eh vorher bauen und playtesten, das anpassen von Gefahrendecks gegen die bekannten Winnerdecks kann man auch vorbereiten und sollte dann nicht länger als ne gute Stunfe dauern, ich finde das kann durchaus noch am Vorabend des Finales mit Spaß haben verbinden. Aber ok, kann man sicher auch anders sehen, aber eine WM sollte auch einen gewissen Abspruch haben finde ich;-)

[CDavis7M]

It seems to me that the existing tournament format does not fit the reality of the situation. The issue is not whether a separate deck should be allowed at Finals -- there should be no Finals. Or, it should at least actually be a different tournament.

In the ICE age, Nationals/Worlds was an invitation only event for players that had already proven their skill at various other local tournaments. Players could bring a new deck to use at these top level tournaments because they were different tournaments. Is this not the reason why Worlds still allows a separate deck to be used for the Finals?

However, today there is only 1 underlying tournament and it happens at the same hosted event as the "final" tournament. Does it really make sense to hold a "Final" if there is only 1 underlying tournament? Seems weird to me. I'm not aware of any other tournament operating this way. If there is really only one tournament then that tournament should decide the winner.

----------

The Swiss tournament format is not designed to find the best player (it only compares against the field). Still, the Swiss format is useful because it's quicker than a double elimination tournament or some other format that is designed to find the best player. So if people really want to find the best player, there needs to be a different tournament. Actually different, not pretend.

One option would be to just hold Finals alongside the normal tournament where the top 1 or 2 players in last years Final are seeded into the next final to compete against the top players of last years tournament. The Finals could be single or double elimination while the normal tournament could use the Swiss format.

This way the top players of last years tournament and the seeded players only need to prepare for the Finals.

But if someone really really wanted to ensure that they would play in next years Finals even if they didn't get seeded, the Finals could be held at different times from the main tournament so that a player could play in both. But that is on them.

[Muad'Dib]

Hi guys,

first i will really appreciate if you, Patrick and Heiner, write in english. Its english forum and we are talking about international tournament, not only for german players

But, lets go back to the main topic. Of course i understand both points of view. This tournament is exhausting, especially night before Final Four. Also, for me, priority is to have fun with community. Still, i think Worlds are very special tournament. Thats why i always build 4 decks, two for qualifications and two for finals, just in case I qualified. So im againt to decide about title just after 5 rounds of GO. Sometimes, some players are more lukcy to have easier opponents and results can be crokeed because of it. If we decide to keep the same decks used for qualifications, finals will be boring, for qualifications usually meta is best option. And we should think about providing to the judge deck lists, to avoid any changes before finals. Every year i see more interesting ideas in the finals because people want to suprise opponents.

[Smaug]

Hi Pavel,
sorry you are right sorry for writing in English.

Cheers

Heiner

[Thorsten the Traveller]

I've played a few Worlds in the last five years (upon request) and even qualified for finals (but declined to play), hence I feel I can add a few cents to the discussion, though not too many (i.e. 2 cents).

Pawel is fully correct!
Yes working on decks between qualifiers/finals is no fun and exhausting. So then do it before the tournament?!
Guessing who potential opponents are and what they will play seems to me part of the challenge.

Chris is partly correct, the system might not fit the current tournament scene. But I'll add this:
In the early days, Worlds was even a 3 day tournament. There were qualifiers to get into the semi-finals.
Seeded players were automatically qualified for semi-finals, but not for finals.

But look at this quote from Kodi's tournament report, which is quite telling but also problematic (in my opinion):

I did not change any cards regarding what I had planned at home because I already said that the opponents in the Final could be Paweł, Karsten, Patric and Heiner. So my hazards were already thought out against their usual decks.

Or just look at the results of the last 10 Worlds. The scene of very competitive players is apparently so small, that guessing who you'll face and what they'll play is not even a real concern in todays Worlds. On the other hand, the fact that Kodi was in finals and played a deck that others did not expect, THAT gave the scene perhaps some new impulse.

[Smaug]

I've played a few Worlds in the last five years (upon request) and even qualified for finals (but declined to play), hence I feel I can add a few cents to the discussion, though not too many (i.e. 2 cents).

Pawel is fully correct!
Yes working on decks between qualifiers/finals is no fun and exhausting. So then do it before the tournament?!
Guessing who potential opponents are and what they will play seems to me part of the challenge.

Chris is partly correct, the system might not fit the current tournament scene. But I'll add this:
In the early days, Worlds was even a 3 day tournament. There were qualifiers to get into the semi-finals.
Seeded players were automatically qualified for semi-finals, but not for finals.

But look at this quote from Kodi's tournament report, which is quite telling but also problematic (in my opinion):

I did not change any cards regarding what I had planned at home because I already said that the opponents in the Final could be Paweł, Karsten, Patric and Heiner. So my hazards were already thought out against their usual decks.

Or just look at the results of the last 10 Worlds. The scene of very competitive players is apparently so small, that guessing who you'll face and what they'll play is not even a real concern in todays Worlds. On the other hand, the fact that Kodi was in finals and played a deck that others did not expect, THAT gave the scene perhaps some new impulse.

90 Percent agree, on the other hand this means deck building for 4 decks and writing lists for the finals without knowing if you qualify, I prefer building them on the fly after semi finals to be honest after knowing if I am qualified, as written (in German ) before. Nevertheless this seems to be an option/compromise, that I could agree upon

Cheers

Heiner

[Manuel]

Hello all!

This has also been discussed in the spanish council, where we are now holding online tournaments in GCCG with 20-40 players every 2-3 months.

Our final decission has been NOT to allow decks to be changed for the final top 4. The reason: we want winner decks to be overall solid decks, not only decks built especifically to beat certain players.

We do like, however, the fact that there's a "day 2" for finals (it can be played on the same day, though), where the top 4 players from the swiss tournament have to face each other. But they have to play the same decks they used during the swiss.

Cheers,

Manuel Cabezalí

[Patric]

Hi Manuel,

I also like playing a second day but not the deck building part so maybe we should consider a change in this direction…


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[Manuel]

Hi Manuel,

I also like playing a second day but not the deck building part so maybe we should consider a change in this direction…


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Yeah, this is exactly what we have agreed in the spanish council. We are going to implement it in the next national championships that will begin this november. However, I'm confident it's going to work, this is the same method that many competitive card games use and it works wonders I'm especially concerced about the "legacy" of decks we leave for the future, that's the main reason for this change.

On a side note, I played against Kodi before Lure and I have to say his deck is a very solid and sorpresive deck, he could have played it the whole tournament and still win. It's true that his vs minion hazards were mostly thought to work against the Balrog, but then again that's something I'd totally do in a day 1 (swiss) tournament too.

[Glorfindel2]

...
Our final decission has been NOT to allow decks to be changed for the final top 4. The reason: we want winner decks to be overall solid decks, not only decks built especifically to beat certain players.
...
We do like, however, the fact that there's a "day 2" for finals (it can be played on the same day, though), where the top 4 players from the swiss tournament have to face each other. But they have to play the same decks they used during the swiss.

Well it's been a long time for me ending up in a top 4 (at Worlds 2003 and Lure 2004). Then I took a break from this great game for over 15 years and came back to finish on 5th place at both Worlds 2019 and 2021

Anyway, if I'll ever enter the top 4 again, here are my 2 cents:

I totally support the Spanish/Patrics Idea!!!

This would mean tweaking and play testing my deck to a maximum BEFORE the tournament weekend. So I can really enjoy this, because there is no hurry... The deck should be built in a way to beat every deck. I mean still focused on the meta, but not only on 3 or 4 decks.
Then, finally on this particular weekend, when all the great players come together, you can put all your energy in playing AND hanging out with the others.

Sounds like the best compromise to me guys!

Cheers, Sebastian