Improvement ideas

To fulfill a scenario a player has to meet all deck building requirements during the whole game, and additionally the winning requirements for a certain scenario at the end of a game. There are 16 wizard scenarios and 6 ringwraith scenarios...

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Fangorn
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Improvement ideas

Post by Fangorn » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:29 pm

During last Scenario Tournaments, some people gave ideas to improve this format.
I gathered them in this post.

[Denis] Progressive difficulty
Replace scenario's difficulty by different steps of WR (easy / medium / difficult), for example with Return of the King :
- easy => 3 of the following cards are successfully played: Army of the Dead, The White Tree, Return of the King, Choice of Luthien
- medium => all following cards are successfully played: Army of the Dead, The White Tree, Return of the King, Choice of Luthien
- hard => all following cards are successfully played: Army of the Dead, The White Tree, Return of the King, Choice of Luthien, and Aragorn bears Narsil reforged as Anduril, the Flame of the West

[Dominique] DC scenario
Allow game between a "normal" scenario and a DC scenario (not 2 separate formats)
For example : game between "The Hobbit" against "A Lady Rules upon Arda"

[Franck] DC format
Normal scenario are played according to DC format :
- 25% DC cards in a "normal" scenario deck
- all DC rules applied : 3 minor items, untapping avatar with another copy
- ...

[Franck] Minion game
To encourage playing minion scenario, give additionnal TP (1 or 2) for each minion game played (not necessary scenario fulfilled)

[Ernst] Stopping opponent
Score additionnal TP (1 or 2) if opponent fails his scenario

[Ernst] Scenario points
Scenario points are fixed, whatever MP results, and are always :
- difficult => 6 TPs
- medium => 5 TPs
- easy => 4 TPs
Hrum, Hoom ! Do not be hasty, that is my motto.

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Yegor
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Yegor » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:33 am

Well, I can't be accounted an expert in Scenario games, as I've only participated in one tournamet, but since I do like this format, I'll put my 5 kopecs :)
Fangorn wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:29 pm
[Dominique] DC scenario
Allow game between a "normal" scenario and a DC scenario (not 2 separate formats)
For example : game between "The Hobbit" against "A Lady Rules upon Arda"
Please, don't. DC have some nice cards (I must admit) that can be used in a normal deck. Prior to my first Lure I asked if sites from the Long-expected Party were allowed. They weren't. Some sites from the LEP will be included in future DC sets. Thus, making them allowed. And this will be a violation of the current rules. Plus, not everyone has DC sets.
Fangorn wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:29 pm
[Franck] DC format
Normal scenario are played according to DC format :
- 25% DC cards in a "normal" scenario deck
- all DC rules applied : 3 minor items, untapping avatar with another copy
See above. Don't mix normal and DC cards. Rather make a separate tournamet for DC cards.
Fangorn wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:29 pm
[Ernst] Stopping opponent
Score additionnal TP (1 or 2) if opponent fails his scenario
Stopping opponent and failing scenario are, actually, two different things. In my first scenario game I couldn't fulfill my scenario only because I was playing accoridng to the official rules - the game ends when 2 decks are exhausted. With my first game I learned that it was not so. Some games ended without even exhausting a deck. So for my further three games I had to adjust my deck to be able to fulfill my scenario. But my first failure was not my opponent's merrit.So I don't see why he should get additional TP.

gollum51
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by gollum51 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:47 pm

I like progressive difficulty.
I also like giving additional TPs to minions. Maybe we could also allow cross-playing i.e. minion vs hero so that you would only have to prepare one deck for the tourney rather than 2 when you want to play minion.

Still not sure about mixing DC with non-DC. Probably bettrer to have a DC scenario tourney.

I prefer also to keep notmal point scoring i.e. 4-0, 3-1 for MP.

Finally regarding stopping opponents’ scenarios, I find it important to give an incentive to stop your opponent’s scenario but I also agree with Yegor’s point (why would you be given a bonus if your opponent does not play well? You are already advantaged if you play against a weaker opponent!).
So instead we could give a penalty (e.g. -1TP) if you fail to prevent your opponent from succeeding his scenario (unless it is an easy scenario?).

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Sam.Gamdschie
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Sam.Gamdschie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:15 am

Long time ago we had initiated the format to integrate new players on the one side and give experienced players new challenges on the other side.
DC brings in additional complexity which also Hero vs. Minion does, so I would rather vote against those changes as general rules.
But I could imagine to have them optional. Thus a player could agree to play Hero vs. Minion.

For DC it‘s like for Fallen-wizards or Balrog: It‘s a different alignment (more or less) and needs different scenarios.

The TP issue is complex, but I think it‘s better to have some incentives: Giving an additional bonus to play minion is fine. Also general adjustments are fine.
But stopping the opponent in fulfilling the scenario should not be rewarded as fulfilling the scenario will be rewarded already.

For those progressive TPs it could be difficult to find steps for all scenarios but I like the idea.
Co-founder of the Hamburg Scenarios and Former Slave of Lure's Price Ceremonies

Fangorn
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Fangorn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:02 pm

gollum51 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:47 pm
I prefer also to keep notmal point scoring i.e. 4-0, 3-1 for MP.
TP for MP are kept additionally to TP for scenario.

You should have read :
Scenario points are fixed, whatever MP results, and are always :
- difficult => 6 TPs
- medium => 5 TPs
- easy => 4 TPs


instead of :
If the player wins due to MPs :
• 7 TPs for a difficult scenario
• 6 TPs for a medium-hard scenario
• 5 TPs for an easy scenario
If the player loses due to MPs :
• 5 TPs for a difficult scenario
• 4 TPs for a medium-hard scenario
• 3 TPs for an easy scenario
If there is a tie :
• 6 TPs for a difficult scenario
• 5 TPs for a medium-hard scenario
• 4 TPs for an easy scenario
Hrum, Hoom ! Do not be hasty, that is my motto.

Darksatin
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Darksatin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:16 pm

Hello,
I see that we have a lot of ideas to improve the scenario rules and it is certainly a good thing.
But we should be careful to not destabilize the format and scare new players with incessant changes.
We must keep an "official" format for official tournaments (Lure, Worlds) and for on-line play.
Of course, the rules can be modified, but only after playtesting and an international vote of the interested players.

Sam, we have made also specific First Folk scenarios (for a specific tournament).
Maybe this tournament format will be organized at Words 2019, in Lille.

[Denis] Progressive difficulty
Replace scenario's difficulty by different steps of WR (easy / medium / difficult)

Interesting idea. But we must find 3 levels of difficulty for each scenario.
And playtest these new scenarios.
I can work on it.
But there is a problem to solve: should the 3 levels of difficulty be all built according to this diagram ?

Easy : condition A
Medium : condition A + condition B
Difficult : condition A + condition B + condition C

Or could other diagrams exist ?
(Examples)
Easy : condition A
Medium : condition B
Difficult : condition A + condition B

Easy : condition A
Medium : condition A + condition B
Difficult : condition B + condition C
Etc…

[Dominique] DC scenario
Allow game between a "normal" scenario and a DC scenario (not 2 separate formats)
For example : game between "The Hobbit" against "A Lady Rules upon Arda"

The "Mixed Scenario" format was not my idea but was imposed to us by the circumstances
(to allow a beginner or a non-DC player to play in a DC scenario tournament).
I'm not OK to officialize it.

[Franck] DC format
Normal scenario are played according to DC format :
- 25% DC cards in a "normal" scenario deck
- all DC rules applied : 3 minor items, untapping avatar with another copy

It could be an interesting variant for a local tournament, but I'm not OK to "officialize" it.


[Franck] Minion game
To encourage playing minion scenario, give additionnal TP (1 or 2) for each minion game played (not necessary scenario fulfilled)

I am against this proposal. Some players who do not like this format will never play minion.

[Ernst] Stopping opponent
Score additionnal TP (1 or 2) if opponent fails his scenario

I have an alternative proposal: - 1TP to each player if both have succeeded their scenario

[Ernst] Scenario points
Scenario points are fixed, whatever MP results, and are always :
- difficult => 6 TPs
- medium => 5 TPs
- easy => 4 TPs

The MP result would be less important. Players must be encouraged to win with MPs. So I prefer to keep the current system.

Grishnakh
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Grishnakh » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:16 am

I agree with SAM.
The idea of origin for Scenario games was, unexperienced player can play vs experienced players and both have fun and an aim!

After long time we just played hero vs hero for the unexperienced players to step in, we add the minion alignment for the experienced players (only).
The best in this rule is, that you know versus which alignment you will playing and you just need 1 hazard deck! I think that's a great point.

Falling Wizards and Balrog never was a question for us, because of the unexperienced players we liked to help with this scenario-tournament idea.
So that would be only working between experienced players and they need a special hazard SB for it etc. Is that really necessary?
So please don't mix hero vs minion a.s.o.

I think the "normal" hero and minion scenarios are much exciting still (for me it is!).
Or there is anybody who already won all scenarios wich still exist? and now who is boring of them?? And have no ideas for new scenarios in M or H???

Also DC scenarios are interesting, but for me an idea for the future, 'cause first I need experience in playing DC and it will take time for that for me.
And please don't mix DC scenarios not with "normal" scenarios.
Both are playing with different rules and much players doesn't play DC's.
So please let us keep it separate !

For me DC Scenarios are only interesting for DC tournaments, like DC Genarell Opponent, DC Challange Deck, DC Scenarios, may be some times DC Starter Games to invite new player (with easy and simple Starter-Cahallange Dekcs)??!

But in the end I have 1 more question:
Why we still talking about"Hamburger Scenario"?
Yes, in Hamburg it did start, but know tha most Scenario players come from France and it's playing in Hamburg, France (the most) and @Lure. nothing else.
So why we don't change this tournament name in only "Scenario Games" or "International Scenarios" or even "French Scenario (with help from Hamburg)" :D ?

All the best,
Heiko
"Have fun in still playing ME!"
Cheers,
Heiko / Grishnakh

matchou
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by matchou » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:48 pm

To bring grist to the mill, what do you think to score additionnal TP (1, 2, 3) for decks that are using a lot of commons and/or uncommons cards ?

I think it could be usefull for unexperienced player who don't get all the cards. It's also a good way to promote the playability of some cards that never leave the binders.

I'm noob in this format, I've just played one tournament with one Dominique's deck but I hope to play much more in the future.
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Darksatin
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Darksatin » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm

I started working on hero scenarios with 3 levels of difficulty. (the "progressive" proposal)
It is not an easy task. :shock:
The most "difficult" of the 19 "easy" versions must be easier than the "easiest" of the 19 "medium" scenarios.
Similarly, the "easiest" of the 19 "difficult" scenarios must be more difficult than the most difficult of the "medium" scenarios ... :?

Grishnakh
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Grishnakh » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:56 pm

matchou wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:48 pm
To bring grist to the mill, what do you think to score additionnal TP (1, 2, 3) for decks that are using a lot of commons and/or uncommons cards ?

I think it could be usefull for unexperienced player who don't get all the cards. It's also a good way to promote the playability of some cards that never leave the binders.

I'm noob in this format, I've just played one tournament with one Dominique's deck but I hope to play much more in the future.
Every player is allowd to make proxies of any cards he need, so every player has the same potential of cards to play.
And if you don't have cards to make proxies, you can found them online or ask here in the forum for it.
Also, many players are able to bring most cards as a gift to lure or minimum proxies for you, which you couldn't made.

Cheers,
Heiko
Cheers,
Heiko / Grishnakh

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Sam.Gamdschie
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Re: Improvement ideas

Post by Sam.Gamdschie » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:59 pm

Darksatin wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm
It is not an easy task. :shock:
That was my first thinking...

It’s really a charming idea but I’m not sure if the hard work will lead to a better tournament format in the end.
The are some scenarios which are very unlikely to find a thematically fitting variant with 3 difficulty levels.
Good luck anyway!
Co-founder of the Hamburg Scenarios and Former Slave of Lure's Price Ceremonies

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