Does Secrets need errata to match Ringlore?

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
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Zakath
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Does Secrets need errata to match Ringlore?

Post by Zakath » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:22 pm

Perhaps there is something I am missing, but shouldn't Secrets of Their Forging have received the same wording errata that Ringlore did here? One of the aspects that was fixed was explicitly granting compatibility with Rumours of Rings (and I think that's a good thing).

Secrets has one of the same ambiguous wording issues that Ringlore used to - it says 'replace' rather than 'play' the Ring special item. It seems like it suffers from the same problem of not seeming to be compatible with Whispers of Rings. I could not find a ruling anywhere specifically addressing the question of whether a ring on Whispers can be played via Secrets or not, nor does it seem to have any existing errata.

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rezwits
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Re: Does Secrets need errata to match Ringlore?

Post by rezwits » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:22 pm

My take on this, is when trying to decide what a card can or can't do, sometime we look at the "mirror card", and if there is a ruling for the "mirror card" with practically the same text, then the clarification pretty much stands for the other card.

That's my take, and would basically enforce in any play group I am involved with.
You probably aren't playing Agents correctly 8) <- need a rule thread for this tho...

Zakath
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Re: Does Secrets need errata to match Ringlore?

Post by Zakath » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:58 am

That's how I would play it with friends, but I might not be comfortable heading to a tournament with a deck built around it.

It just seems strange that they fixed one, referenced the other in the discussion of the fix, and then didn't change the mirror card to match.

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the Jabberwock
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Re: Does Secrets need errata to match Ringlore?

Post by the Jabberwock » Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:10 am

Zakath wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:22 pm
Perhaps there is something I am missing, but shouldn't Secrets of Their Forging have received the same wording errata that Ringlore did here?
The language ICE used on Secrets was an improvement over the language they used for Ringlore. It is at least clear that with Secrets you are to discard the gold ring. You are correct though that the use with Whispers is not clear.

I do not think there was any particular reason that Secrets was not submitted for erratum as well. Time constraints and simplicity are the most obvious reasons. You may note that The One Ring which also received an erratum for the hero version did not receive a similar erratum for the minion version, see here: https://councilofelrond.org/forum/viewt ... 103&t=3517

I think both Secrets and The One Ring (minion version) are good candidates to submit for errata in the 2019 Annual Rules Vote. (Everyone is allowed to make a submission :wink: )

A separate debate is whether or not all hero and minion mirror cards should function identically. One pair which I personally think is quite lopsided is Align Palantir and Focus Palantir. Align may be stored and is worth 2 MPs each, while Focus may not be stored and is worth no MPs.

Zakath
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Re: Does Secrets need errata to match Ringlore?

Post by Zakath » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:48 pm

I think there are times where it is clear that the cards were intentionally printed differently (i.e. Broad-headed Spear vs. Sword of Gondolin - it is apparent that minion items were balanced differently than hero items; or Hoard Well-searched vs. Bounty of the Hoard - the minion card adds a dependency on a scout). There are other times where it seems obvious that the cards were intended to be perfect mirrors of one another (Thorough Search and Catch an Elusive Scent).

Then there are the times where it is arguable. I think Secrets and Ringlore is a case where they intended them to function the same, but neither of them really had wording that was ideal. The palantir-synergy cards are one where I think the difference was intentional (note that Focus Palantir also does not give corruption).

I think I will post a submission for Secrets. It seems like a hole worth plugging.

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