I did not see any discussion on this ballet item in the REFERENCE TOPIC: http://forum.councilofelrond.org/viewto ... 143&t=3339.
I am wondering why this clarification was needed. The topic states "It is not clear when exactly the beginning of a phase/turn ends and when exactly the end of a phase/turn begins and ends." But the rules seem pretty clear that the resource player that is taking their turn decides the start and end of each phase (MELE FULL PLAYER TURN SUMMARY, p. 93 and 94).
Furthermore, the "timing" of the beginning and end of the phase only matters in the M/H phase (because your opponent can also play cards during this phase). But the beginning and end of the M/H phase are further defined in Annotation 25 in the MELE Companion and CRF:
This post and the reference topic did not explain why these statements in the rules were unclear. It seems clear enough to me.Movement/Hazard Phase wrote:
- Annotation 25: A company is considered to be at the site given by its site card at all times except from the moment their new site card is revealed during their movement/hazard phase until their old site card is discarded during the same movement/hazard phase. During this period a company is considered to be en route between sites and not at any site.
- Annotation 25a: A company's movement/hazard phase is concluded when a moving company removes its site of origin and both players agree to reconcile (discard down to/draw up to) their hand sizes. No resources (and obviously no hazards) can be played, and no resource effects can be activated, until the site phase or until both players have drawn cards for the movement of a following company.
- Annotation 25b: Players drawing cards when a new site is revealed is synonymous with the resolution of the new site being revealed. It happens immediately, not in the following chain of effects.
Second, this topic states that because the start/end of the phase/turn are unclear, "it is unclear when exactly actions that may be taken only at (or are triggered by) the beginning/end of a phase/turn may be (or are) declared." But Annotation 9 on passive conditions already requires that actions triggered by the end of the phase become the first action declared in the following chain of effects. And Annotation 10 states that actions triggered by the same passive condition are declared in the order chosen by the player taking their turn.
This post and the reference topic did not explain why these statements in the rules are unclear. Furthermore, the CRF clarifications on the "End of" are based on the rules on for passive conditions:Passive Conditions wrote:Annotation 9: If a card specifies that an action is to occur as a result of some specific passive condition, this action becomes automatically the first action declared in the chain of effects to immediately follow the chain of effects producing the passive condition. The passive condition must exist when this resulting action is resolved in its own chain of effects, or the action is canceled. Note that actions in the strike sequence follow a different set of rules.
Annotation 9a: If a card is required to be discarded by some passive condition, the card is discarded immediately when the condition resolves, not in the following chain of effects.
Annotation 10: If more than one action is required to be the first action declared in a chain of effects, the player whose turn it is chooses the order in which they are declared. No other actions may be declared in this follow-up chain until the multiple required actions have been declared.
CRF wrote:End-of-Turn Phase
End-of-turn effects are triggered by the ending of the End-of-Turn phase. Once both players are done with all actions in the End-of-Turn phase, all End-of-Turn effects are declared and resolved in the order chosen by the current player. No further actions may be declared that turn.
Besides actions triggered by passive conditions, there are a handful of cards using active conditions (instead of passive conditions) to declare actions "at the beginning/end of" some phase. Like Saruman, Wizard's staff, some of the MELE Magic Rings, etc. It seems clear from the Rules and CRF that these actions are declared in the same chain of effects that the actions declared as a result of passive conditions are declared, since these actions all occur at the same time (e.g., "at the beginning/end of" the phase).CRF wrote:End (at the end of...)
When an action specifies it must be taken at the end of a phase no actions may be taken after it in that phase that do not also specify that they must be taken at the end of said phase.
Did I miss something? Is there there a reason why all of these actions would not be declared in the same chain of effects?
Third, this CoE clarification does not seem to allow for other hazard events to be played in response to hazard actions triggered (as a result of a passive condition) by the start of the movement/hazard phase. However, ICE Digest 115 has ruled that hazard events can be played in response, without requiring that "the only actions that may be declared in response to ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling action and actions that target declared events" as stated in this CoE clarification. Here is the part of the CoE clarification raising this issue:
This states that most hazards may not be played in response to an action triggered by the start of the movement/hazard phase. This CoE clarification requires all triggered ABP to be resolved before other hazards can be declared. However, Snowstorm is an "ABP" -- an action that may be triggered by the beginning of the M/H phase when a site/region card is revealed. Typically, hazards may be played in response to the return-to-origin action triggered by Snowstorm at the start of the movement/hazard phase (see ICE Digest 115). Otherwise the company would return to their origin and the M/H phase would end immediately without the possibility of playing hazards.Shapeshifter wrote: ↑Thu May 17, 2018 7:21 pmBeginning of a phase/turn:
This period begins at the start of a phase/turn and ends when all players announce that they will not declare any ABP starting a chain of effects and when all triggered ABP are resolved.
The only actions that may be declared in response to ABP are other ABP and actions that target a dice-rolling action and actions that target declared events.
Triggered ABP are declared before ABP that may be taken by players.
Was this CoE clarification intended to prevent hazards from being played in response to Snowstorm's return-to-origin effect?