Helm of Her Secrecy

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Konrad Klar
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Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

The Dragons: Helm of Her Secrecy
R2 Resource: Permanent-event

If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)-the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence. If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play.
I propose the following erratum:

"If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)-the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence until end of turn. If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack; she receives the bonuses permanently. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play."

Problem is unspecified duration of effect " She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence".
Éowyn receives the bonuses before the card is placed on her and regardless whether the card will be placed on her.

Therefore meaning of modifiers printed on corner and on border must be different than just duplication of (coincidentally) identical values in text and on corner/border.

Related thread:
Helm of Her Secrecy

EDIT: Changed the proposal according to viewtopic.php?p=36939#p36939
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 am
I propose the following erratum:

"If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)-the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence until end of turn. If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play."

Problem is unspecified duration of effect " She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence".
Éowyn receives the bonuses before the card is placed on her and regardless whether the card will be placed on her.


Therefore meaning of modifiers printed on corner and on border must be different than just duplication of (coincidentally) identical values in text and on corner/border.

Related thread:
Helm of Her Secrecy
Really? The duration is clearly specified. You can't be bothered to read the 2 (maybe 3) sentences of rules on permanent-events? The rule was mentioned 7 times in the other discussion on Helm (viewtopic.php?p=36856). But you are going to ask the community to read this post and discuss?
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:50 am
Therefore meaning of modifiers printed on corner and on border must be different than just duplication of (coincidentally) identical values in text and on corner/border.
Just stop.

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

I do not believe that all effects of permanent events last until the card is discarded.

Unless that results are not considered effects.
Gates of Morning discards hazard environment cards and cancels hazard environment effects when it comes in play.
The results do not disappear when Gates of Morning leaves play.

" She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence" is effect/result that comes from the text of card (before Helm of Her Secrecy is placed on
Éowyn).
"+2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence" is effect that comes from values printed on corner/border of the card.

If the two would be treated as separate effects, then according "all effects of permanent effects last until the card is discarded" Éowyn after facing Nazgûl attack would gain cumulative bonus permanently. After all one is gained by text, other by values printed on corner/border of the card.

EDIT: "effects of permanent effects" > "effects of permanent events"
Last edited by Konrad Klar on Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CDavis7M
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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

I could explain it. But it would be more helpful for you to quote the rules that you are relying on for your understanding -- because this understanding of Helm of Her Secrecy is way beyond the rules.

Hint: read the entire section and figure out what it is describing (ie understand the context).

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

New hint: The rules on events definitely do not say "all effects of permanent effects last until the card is discarded." The rules on events tell you about two types of durations. And they definitely don't say anything about causing new actions beyond what is stated on the card.

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

I must admit that the errata is not needed at all if not possibility of placing multiple copies of Helm of her Secrecy on Éowyn.

If multiple copies of Helm of Her Secrecy are placed on her then bonuses from all copies except the last resolved do not correlate with bonuses that she received after being played.

Hence the assumption that bonuses from text and values printed on border and corner are separate.
And that bonuses from text should have limited duration. Otherwise the card would be overpowered.
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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:13 pm
I do not believe that all effects of permanent effects last until the card is discarded.
No one believes that. The rules on events specifically tell the reader that some effects can last over a duration of game time and other effects do not. An event that doesn't last for any duration at all clearly does not "last" whether the permanent event is discarded or not.

This should be obvious from looking at short events which have durations, if any, specified in their card text (whereas permanent and long events have their duration specified in the rules). Some effects of short events have no duration: "untap a character" or "+3 to a corruption check." Other effects do have a duration "+1 prowess until the end of the turn".
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:13 pm
Unless that results are not considered effects.
Gates of Morning discards hazard environment cards and cancels hazard environment effects when it comes in play.
The results do not disappear when Gates of Morning leaves play.
The effect of discarding cards had no duration over a period of game time. It is not a lasting effect. It happens immediately and it is done. Nothing in the rules suggests that discarding a permanent event triggers addition actions of removing cards from the discard. There is also no record keeping mechanism to support this.
Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:13 pm
" She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence" is effect/result that comes from the text of card (before Helm of Her Secrecy is placed on Éowyn).
"+2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence" is effect that comes from values printed on corner/border of the card.
The rules never state that values printed on the border of events have any effect on the game, because they don't. It is the card text of events that affects game play. The symbols are just reminders and the rules tell you that they are merely reminders.

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

The White Hand: Will You Not Come Down?
U3 Hazard: Permanent-event

Playable on a Fallen-wizard at a Wizardhaven [W]. Your opponent must choose either: discard from play enough stage cards (of his choice) to reduce his total below 7 or to receive 4 [-me_sp-] . Cannot be duplicated on a given Fallen-wizard. "'And I have the power to protect you. I am giving you a last chance.'"-LotRIII
Sometimes values printed on border do not correlate with text at all. :(
The proposal assumes that the values printed on border and in corner (of multiple copies) of Helm of Her Secrecy are not dummy.
The text of Helm of Her Secrecy, especially part "If enough influence is available to control her" supports concept of playing the Helm of Her Secrecy AND not playing the Éowyn.


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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:08 am
The proposal assumes that the values printed on border and in corner (of multiple copies) of Helm of Her Secrecy are not dummy.
Unfortunately you just have to read the rules. The rules explicitly state that some values in the border (e.g., Mind, DI, MP, Corruption Points, stage points) have an effect on the game (ie they are "not dummy"). And then the rules explicitly state that sometimes the values in the border are just for emphasis (e.g., modifiers).

The modifiers on the Helm of Her Secrecy permanent-event are modifiers. They are just for emphasis. It should be obvious that card text matters and such symbols on events do not matter because there is a TON of tiny card text dedicated to describing the effects which could otherwise have been handled using symbols.

The SP symbol on WIll You Not Come Down is missing the brackets (which are used on In the Grip of Ambition). Extra credit if you find the cards that actually don't follow these rules.
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Konrad Klar wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:08 am
The text of Helm of Her Secrecy, especially part "If enough influence is available to control her" supports concept of playing the Helm of Her Secrecy AND not playing the Éowyn.
No it doesn't. Influence is normally only reconciled during the organization phase. But Helm of Her Secrecy is played outside of the organization phase. That it why the card explicitly states: "if enough influence is available to control her." It is explicitly stating that you need to control her mind even though it is outside of the organization phase.

Instead, the text of Helm of Her Secrecy, especially "If Éowyn is in your hand" and "regardless, Éowyn remains in play", indicate that the player CANNOT play multiple copies of the card. Why would the designer of Helm of Her Secrecy intended for the player to declare multiple copies in response and then wait for the first declared and last resolved copy before playing Eowyn? No other card in the game works this way and no other duplicatable effect requires the player to play it in response to another copy to actually work (besides effects for dice rolls). And certainly nothing in the game expects the player to wait until the last copy is resolved to work. Most players don't even know this timing rule! Some players don't even know how the Stage Point symbols work, so why would the game designers expect the player to understand an otherwise inconsequential and completely obscure timing rule to be able to play this card properly?

If Helm of Her Secrecy were intended to allow for multiple copies to be played then it would definitely not have required Eowyn to be in your hand. The card would have been worded completely different if multiple copies were intended:

If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is Playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)--the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. Place Helm of Her secrecy this card with Éowyn. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence. If the attack is not a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play.

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

"if enough influence is available to control her." would be playabilty condition (active condition).
It is part of main effect.
Check for absence of " Beorn or an untapped warrior with prowess greater than 4" is not playability condition of Beorning Skin-changers." is part of main effect of Beorning Skin-changers as short-event. It is not active condition of the card.

Someone may perceive a difference between active condition and main effect in different way than I perceive.

Followers removed from control of DI outside of organization phase do not need to be controlled by influence.
Hypothetical effect would allow to play a character that otherwise require influence to be controlled without influence.
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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

When I Know Anything gives one CP and it is not reflected in text of the card (or does it not give CP and the value in corner just reminds... what?).

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:52 am
When I Know Anything gives one CP and it is not reflected in text of the card (or does it not give CP and the value in corner just reminds... what?).
Go back and read the rules I just posted.

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

Thanks CDavis7M for putting the attention on how inconsistently some values printed on card are used.
They are reminders, but sometimes it is unclear what they actually should remind.

Helm of Her Secrecy, until placed on Éowyn, is on company.
Without text that describes what the values actually present, someone would (rightly in my opinion) wonder whether that the values are modifiers of attributes of each member of company, just like in case of Fellowship.

So the values, if not correlated with text, may mean nothing.
Value printed in left bottom corner of Smart and Secret affects all characters in company (but not allies). Value printed on left side of the card affects only target character.

Therefore I change my proposal to:

"If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)-the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence until end of turn. If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack; she receives the bonuses permanently. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play."

I will edit the first post of the thread accordingly.
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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by CDavis7M »

Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:27 pm
So the values, if not correlated with text, may mean nothing.
Value printed in left bottom corner of Smart and Secret affects all characters in company (but not allies). Value printed on left side of the card affects only target character.
The values for mind, direct influence, prowess, and body always mean nothing. There is nothing in the rules to say that they mean anything. The effects of permanent-events modifying these attributes are defined by the effect their card text, which are resolved when the permanent-event is resolved in the chain of effects.

The values for Marshalling Points may or may not be a reminder. You have to read the card to find out. It is important to distinguish whether the MP value in the corner is the MP of the card itself or a reminder of other MP because the MEWH rules work differently for the differently working cards.

The values for Corruption Points are not a reminder. The rules on corruption point totals say so.

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Konrad Klar wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:27 pm
Therefore I change my proposal to:

"If Éowyn is in your hand, this card is playable on a company facing an attack (before strikes are assigned)-the company must contain a character with Edoras as a home site. If enough influence is available to control her, Éowyn may be played with (i.e., joins) the company. She gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence until end of turn. If the attack is a Nazgûl, place Helm of Her secrecy with Éowyn following the attack; she receives the bonuses permanently. Otherwise, discard this card following the attack. Regardless, Éowyn remains in play."
But that is different from how it currently works and is potentially more confusing. The bonuses only last for the current attack if the attack is non-Nazgul, not until the end of the turn. Since the card is discarded after the non-Nazgul attack, the effects do not last "until the end of the turn." So then why bother stating that?

And stating "permanently" is confusing -- is this intended to override the normal rules on permanent-events, which have non-permanent effects that only last until they are discarded? This seems unlikely as there would be no record kept once it was discarded. But then what is the work "permanent" adding?

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Anduril is the oddball. It "gives its bearer 4 Marshaling points." Presumably this effect means 4 (what it says), and not 4 "additional." And then the 1CP in the corner is the same as the "Andúril gives its bearer ... one more corruption point" (just "one", one additional). A Lair Paradox?

Also, The White Hand has values in the border but lacks the "adopt the given attributes" effect found in other MEWH card.

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Re: Helm of Her Secrecy

Post by Konrad Klar »

"Permanently" does not mean "infinitely" . Effect of Alliance of Free Peoples is permanent but disappears when the card leaves active play.
According the errata proposal the Éowyn gains +2 prowess, +1 body, and +1 direct influence until end of turn. So not permanently.
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