URD Errors - Post Here

Errata issued by the CoE, open discussion of candidate rules for errata, and submissions for the Annual Rules Vote.
User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2020
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: URD Errors - Post Here

Post by CDavis7M »

meaglyn wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:20 am
You interpretation of the second condition ignores the text on the left side of the dashes and treats the right side as both the condition and the result. If you that with the first one it's just "your opponent wins." which doesn't seem like much fun.

It's hard for me to see how you can ignore the conditional part of the victory condition.
I'm not ignoring it—it isn't there. Notice my proper use of the long-dash ( — ) without a condition or a result. A use consistent with the explanation of the long-dash I posted above.

I have seen no description of the long-dash ( — ) in the English language to suggest that it implies a "condition and result," and you have provided none. Furthermore, its clear from the METW rules that the long-dash does not imply a "condition and result".
meaglyn wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:20 am
I disagree that your interpretation is valid as it ignores the victory condition part of the victory condition and just uses the results clause.
Except that the rule is not "conditions and results". And your interpretation ignores the METW Victory Conditions use of the long-dash. It is clear from METW that author did not consider the long-dash ( — ) to imply condition/result. In METW, destroying The One Ring is the Victory Condition, NOT "move The One Ring to Mount Doom and play certain cards." This is obvious because you can play "certain cards" without winning and you can win without ever moving The One Ring to Mount Doom. As stated on the "certain cards", The One Ring is destroyed.

"Move The One Ring to Mount Doom" is just a means for playing the cards that may potentially destroy The One Ring since such cards are only playable at Mount Doom. Moving is a means, not a condition. Similarly, moving The One Ring to Barad-dur is a means to reunite Sauron with The One Ring, not a condition for winning.
Victory Conditions.png
Victory Conditions.png (1.36 MiB) Viewed 319 times
meaglyn wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:20 am
These victory conditions are written as <condition> -- <result> in the rule book snippet you posted.

The first has the condition "if your ringwraith is eliminated" and the result is "your opponent wins". If your ringwraith is not eliminated then this victory condition does not apply and your opponent does not win because of it.

Do you not see how the second one follows the same simple pattern of <condition> -- <result>?
I cannot see why the author would decide to use the long-dash instead of the word "then" if they intended to describe a condition and result. And, as explained above, if this really were supposed to be "condition" and "result," it fails in doing so since the result does not always follow from the condition and the result can occur without the condition. So it is not even a "condition and result."
meaglyn wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:20 am
Your interpretation would require wording like:

"if you reunite sauron with the one ring -- you win."
That understanding is not consistent with the METW Rules nor is it consistent with any description of the long dash I've seen outside of this thread. The long-dash is used to join separate concepts. Moving The One Ring to Barad-dur is a means to reuniting Sauron with The One Ring, and so this separate concept is joined by a long-dash.

My interpretation only requires "Sauron is reunited with The One Ring and you win." Which is right there in the rules.
Last edited by CDavis7M on Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:12 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
CDavis7M
Posts: 2020
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:10 am
Location: California

Re: URD Errors - Post Here

Post by CDavis7M »

meaglyn wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:20 am
Anyway, I'm done with this one. We'll just have to agree to disagree :)
But you never bothered to explain why the URD statement is not an error...
CDavis7M wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:13 pm
And again, this thread is about URD errors. The URD made a statement and cited CoE Rulings as supporting its statement. But the CoE Rulings do not support the URD's statement. The URD has misrepresented the CoE Rulings in order to create its own version of the rules. The URD does this numerous times as I've pointed out here.

If you think that the URD statement is not an error, then explain how it is supported from the cited CoE Rulings.
CDavis7M wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:13 pm
Regardless of whether or not my interpretation is correct, this thread is about URD Errors and the URD's statement is an "error" (i.e., wrong in conduct or judgment) because it misrepresents its basis in the CoE Rulings. In all this discussion about my interpretation, no one has bothered to explain how the URD statement below is not a misrepresentation of CoE 48.
URD - Victory Conditions wrote:As a Ringwraith player, if you move The One Ring to Barad-dûr, Sauron is reunited with The One Ring and you win.
» “Yes, you do really have to move there with The One Ring. You can’t just have The One Ring there” [CoE 48].
» You are not at the site until the beginning of the Site Phase, therefore, you do not win until then [CoE 48].
CoE Netrep wrote:From: Chad Martin <chad@t...>
Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:51 am
Subject: [NetRep] Rulings Digest #48

Being a minion, you have to go to Barad Dur with the ring and you win ?
thats all ?
*** That's it.
"That's it" means that nothing more needs to be done (e.g., you do not need to play cards to win the game as does a Wizard player)

"That's it" does not mean "Yes, you do really have to move there with The One Ring. You can’t just have The One Ring there" as claimed by the URD.

This misunderstanding is a result of the same fundamental flaw in reading comprehension found in other misunderstandings throughout the URD, and similarly found in the CoE rulings. The flaw is assuming that because the rules say "something", that the rules somehow suggest that the absolute restriction that the "something" can only ever happen in that way. This flaw appears in the misunderstands on Passive Conditions, the misunderstanding of the on-guard rules, and the misunderstandings of the restrictions on playing resources in the Site Phase.

Post Reply

Return to “Rules & Errata”